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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : Test warping
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skell
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What do you mean by "allowing scripts and green doors to be set at the beginning of room"?

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06-28-2006 at 09:12 PM
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AlefBet
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I mean have an interface something like: Press F5 to playtest the room. Before you click on the place you want to start Beethro, you could click on a character script which would change color to indicate it was "marked." You can continue clicking on characters to "mark" them, and when you finally place Beethro, those character scripts are already marked as "done" so they won't run. I'd also allow you to click on a green door or monster, which would "mark" the room -- i.e. you could then place Beethro in a beaten version of the room for playtesting. (Likewise for blue doors.)

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06-28-2006 at 09:22 PM
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skell
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Hmmm... <Wonders for a while>

It doesn't look too handy but still... Good :). But well, you know, even this will make people create crappy holds... That's the worst thing in this situation. NO matter what features you have, Lamers still can use them in a bad way to create... Very crappy stuff... Ehh, anyway I think this is good idea what you say. Not the same, have lesser possibilities, but it is better than nothing hehe :).

*Uses his few mod points to mod*

-Maurice Z.

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06-28-2006 at 10:11 PM
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eytanz
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skell wrote:
That's the worst thing in this situation. NO matter what features you have, Lamers still can use them in a bad way to create... Very crappy stuff...

Well, of course, but that's the difference between Adam's suggestion and Neil's suggestion. Nothing can stop bad hold builder from making bad holds. Test warping will make good hold builders build worse holds than they otherwise would. Adam's version won't.

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06-28-2006 at 10:25 PM
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skell
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Nope. I don't agree with you. Warping wouldn't make the Good architect's holds worse, because there is no need in using TW in rooms which simply do not need this feature. And good architect will always playtest everything to make sure if this is how it should be :).

-Maurice Z.

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06-28-2006 at 10:43 PM
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eytanz
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Look, I'm just repeating myself here and I already said once I'll stop. I know you disagree, that's perfectly fine, but the rest of your response has nothing to do with what I'm actually arguing - obviously this feature won't affect rooms that it won't be used in, and whether or not people playtest has nothing to do with the problem this feature will cause.

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06-28-2006 at 10:48 PM
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skell
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Yup. I think the topic has dried up. I'm not capable of finding any good arguments to proove my thoughts, and you also can't find any good arguments to proove your thoughts, because the whole discussion is only a theorotical debate and until there will be such feature we won't know for 100% who is right. Maybe none of us. Both TW and "Marking" has their good sides and bad sides. Both can bring good and wrong. And both would be at least in few moments desired by architects... And both are not needed. To start with I really don't wanted anymore feature badly. Mostly I tried to show the real good sides of it, and change other's a bit pessimistic point of view (No offense to anyone, but I had feeling that you are starting with the thought "This is bad idea" even before considering anything). And it would be nice to have it though ;).

Anyway like Eytanz I'm not going to discuss it anymore.

-Maurice Z. (Who has so bad mood that has problems with understanding what he really wants)

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06-28-2006 at 11:26 PM
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Beef Row
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
AlefBet wrote:
I mean have an interface something like: Press F5 to playtest the room. Before you click on the place you want to start Beethro, you could click on a character script which would change color to indicate it was "marked." You can continue clicking on characters to "mark" them, and when you finally place Beethro, those character scripts are already marked as "done" so they won't run. I'd also allow you to click on a green door or monster, which would "mark" the room -- i.e. you could then place Beethro in a beaten version of the room for playtesting. (Likewise for blue doors.)

This would be a) good, but b) at least as dangerous as test warping, since an architect could

1.) unintentionally mark scripts as ended which through design or an error would never really end.
2.) place the room in impossible states by ending one script but not another when in reality the scripts are linked so that one would end simultaneously with another.
3.) mark green doors as open but leave a script running which normally would be ended if green doors are down.
4.) drop blue doors with green doors still up.

The advantage of instead using test warping to set the script state of a room is that generally it would prevent these paradoxical states (though it could be used to create them as well, it would be more difficult to do so accidentally).


So, well, I don't see either idea as safer than the other. I'm for either one, as long as both aren't implemented, since together they'd definitely be excessive.

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06-28-2006 at 11:36 PM
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AlefBet
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Beef Row wrote:
This would be a) good, but b) at least as dangerous as test warping, since an architect could

1.) unintentionally mark scripts as ended which through design or an error would never really end.
True, but this danger is no worse than what could happen with test warping, where the ending conditions are actually too strict to be met without warping.
2.) place the room in impossible states by ending one script but not another when in reality the scripts are linked so that one would end simultaneously with another.
Same thing again, and also you're constrained to either "done" or "not done" states. With test warping, you could enter parts of a script you can't actually get into.
3.) mark green doors as open but leave a script running which normally would be ended if green doors are down.
Sure, I'll concede this one. How often do you think it would cause a problem?
4.) drop blue doors with green doors still up.
Not so. I would implement dropping blue doors as marking all required rooms cleared. If the current room isn't required, well then dropped blue doors with raised green doors is actually possible.

The two things I like about setting the beginning room state are:
1) You set it up at the beginning of the room, so it's less likely to be used as a shortcut-crutch halfway through.
2) I believe it would be much easier to implement.

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++Adam H. Peterson
06-29-2006 at 12:45 AM
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TripleM
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icon Re: Test warping (+2)  
Just to add my 2 cents, even though everything I'm going to say has pretty much been said:

I think its a good idea.

It will benefit those people who use the feature properly. Sure, you could replicate this with checkpoints etc, but that can be a lot more time consuming. And no, just because it can be time consuming for the architect doesn't mean its a bad room; having to replay something (in the middle of the room) which is very easy 100 times just so you can see what happens if you move a roach one square to the left is tedious.

Pretty much every feature in the game can be used to make broken rooms. The chances that this particular one will cause a non-broken hold to become a broken hold are minimal - those that go through beta testing will be fixed there, and those that don't are likely to be broken for other reasons anyway.

Edit - by the way, some sort of macro thing would solve this problem, wouldn't it? Ie: press record; hit orb at start of room; go through middle part of room. Then after you change something near the end of the room, and replay the macro, you will be in the same position - and if not, you know something has gone wrong earlier.

Edit again - OK, now I have my idea. In the editor, allow playable demos. (Ie, you can play back some demo, but cut in at any point.)

[Last edited by TripleM at 06-29-2006 01:43 AM]
06-29-2006 at 01:35 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
I like TripleM's idea.

I don't see an issue with it.
06-29-2006 at 03:28 AM
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AlefBet
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I don't have a problem with playable demos like that in the editor. Sounds useful to me. The only problem I see is the implementation work for MIke.

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06-29-2006 at 05:26 AM
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