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Oneiromancer
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icon Test warping (+3)  
When testing a room, sometimes you really want to be able to start in one location, in order to simulate someone entering the room, or to hit an orb, but then you want to test a different part of the room because of that action without having to go through everything in-between. The only other option I can think of is to make a copy of the room and delete what you don't want in the way so you can do the complete testing, but it might be nice if there was a better way.

So my suggestion is, when playtesting a room, that you can press F5 to re-place Beethro down anywhere. This would be exactly like placing him when you first start testing a room, so you can rotate him as well, but it doesn't reset the room. I think this could be a very useful testing tool.

Game on,

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06-24-2006 at 08:19 PM
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Beef Row
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
Oneiromancer wrote:
When testing a room, sometimes you really want to be able to start in one location, in order to simulate someone entering the room, or to hit an orb, but then you want to test a different part of the room because of that action without having to go through everything in-between. The only other option I can think of is to make a copy of the room and delete what you don't want in the way so you can do the complete testing, but it might be nice if there was a better way.

So my suggestion is, when playtesting a room, that you can press F5 to re-place Beethro down anywhere. This would be exactly like placing him when you first start testing a room, so you can rotate him as well, but it doesn't reset the room. I think this could be a very useful testing tool.

I second this... when testing rooms with alot of preliminaries, you just can't start in the middle and make it work. Even in my limited hold design experience I've found myself having to play the whole room to test one detail near the end.

This gets even more valuble with rooms which a.) you have to pass through more than once and b.) have scripting actions on each pass through, since you could pass through the script triggers, leave, and come back much more readily.

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06-24-2006 at 08:30 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
I like this idea very much. And I agree it is very useful :).

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06-24-2006 at 08:32 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
I don't really see how this would be a good idea, it seems like a function that will allow people to make broken rooms more easily (i.e. rooms that require repositioning to work in some non-obvious way - say, screwing with timers or script triggers).

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06-24-2006 at 08:44 PM
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Beef Row
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
eytanz wrote:
I don't really see how this would be a good idea, it seems like a function that will allow people to make broken rooms more easily (i.e. rooms that require repositioning to work in some non-obvious way - say, screwing with timers or script triggers).

Being able to test from any point in the room ALREADY allows for non-working rooms to seem fine if you're careless in where you start your test. I don't think this is a problem as long as you test in full as well, and if this will tempt someone to not do full tests once in a while, they probably weren't testing very thourghly to begin with.

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06-24-2006 at 08:52 PM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
If someone's going to make a broken room, they're going to do it anyway...I don't think that people who want to make "honest" rooms will suddenly decide to abuse the system if an option like this were available. I think it's the same argument about scripting in general--sure, some people can abuse it to make unfun holds, but that's not a good reason to keep it away from those who will use it in the way it was intended.

Game on,

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06-24-2006 at 08:52 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
Then create a series of dependent of themselves rooms, which must be visited many times. Let's say you wanna test whether some of the last parts of the one room works. Without this you must either:
-Recode to make it faster
-Go thtough the many levels again and again.

With this feature you'd be able to do it quickly.

EDIT: Lol, 3 posts in two minutes... :w00t :w00t :w00t

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[Last edited by skell at 06-24-2006 08:54 PM]
06-24-2006 at 08:53 PM
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silver
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
when I was testing rooms where I wanted to be "half way through", I figured "perhaps the players want to be half way through as well," put a checkpoint there, and didn't test the room with F5, but by using "play game", then I could Restore to the checkpoint.
but I'm weird :)

(although, admittedly, I didn't know about F5 until after I had done most of level 1, so I had save games all over level 1 to restore to)


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[Last edited by silver at 06-24-2006 09:16 PM]
06-24-2006 at 09:15 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
But it takes a lot time. The warping would be like blessing from the heavens.

Btw, F5 was almost the first thing I've discovered in the editor...

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06-24-2006 at 10:40 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Test warping (+2)  
silver wrote:
when I was testing rooms where I wanted to be "half way through", I figured "perhaps the players want to be half way through as well," put a checkpoint there, and didn't test the room with F5, but by using "play game", then I could Restore to the checkpoint.
but I'm weird :)


Exactly. I think the architect should really try to have as close an experience when building rooms to that of the player. If there's a room where you don't want to replay the first half over and over to playtest it, that's important information about the room. That either menas you should add a checkpoint, or scrap the room. The more tools the architect has to playtest that the player doesn't, the worse the holds that result.

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06-25-2006 at 05:59 AM
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skell
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But look!
If we have many levelsm which must be visited before that level, and the level which we are testing isn't really that long (But there are, let's say 10 rooms before we cen get to it (Of course we can make for ourselves a tiny and quick passages) it takes a really lot of time. Even with this passages. And besides, every smart architect will test his whole hold (or at least every location including this one) to say whether it is possible and unbugged or not. I know what the problem means, because actually in my hold I'm working on some passages which must be visited many times from many directions to be finally able to get through them, and testing it is a big pain in the...

So I really like this idea and be really happy to have it. Besides, even if I don't know the structure of DROD code, I think it won't be too much work (Because we are only changing PLayer's And Swrod's position...).

Thank you for reading.

-Maurice Z.

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06-25-2006 at 07:46 AM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Test warping (+2)  
actually, I'll undelete this, sorta, and say new things--

Eytanz, if we gave people a button that says 'Click here to make your hold 10/10 votes, guaranteed', and it would make your hold not suck no matter what, people would still produce crappy holds.

The Unlimited Undo function still allows good holds.

The ability to just upload directly to the Hold Forum allows good holds.

As games with submittable content become more popular, the probability that there will be /crap/ content becomes /one/.

Architects will not go 'well, I don't feel like replaying that a billion times so I'll change that part of the room'.

They will go 'well, I don't feel like replaying that a billion times so I'm not going to playtest this room, I'm sure it's okay.'


06-25-2006 at 06:31 PM
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Mattcrampy
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
Eytan has a point - where you want to drop Beethro in is a really good place for a checkpoint, and you should probably put one there. Of course, if you exit the playtest you lose your save, but then that's not the question here. I can't think of any reason to use this where using a stub (say, knocking a hole in a blue door and putting a yellow door there that you can open whenever) can also be done.

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06-27-2006 at 12:06 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
Banjooie wrote:
actually, I'll undelete this, sorta, and say new things--

Eytanz, if we gave people a button that says 'Click here to make your hold 10/10 votes, guaranteed', and it would make your hold not suck no matter what, people would still produce crappy holds.

Sure. But this feature request seems to be designed specifically to help people make crappy holds, whether they want to or not.

The Unlimited Undo function still allows good holds.

Of course, but it's not the same. Unlimited undo means that every time you make a change you have to play through it, and then you get a shortcut as long as the room state is constant. F5-warping means that you don't have to do it even once.



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06-27-2006 at 02:05 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Test warping (+2)  
I'd like to have it, primarily because when I make changes to the latter part of the room, I want to test those. Having a checkpoint is all well and good, but all I want to test is the latter part of the room. And I might need to hit a single orb from the beginning.

Is this to say that the first part is too tedious to play? Maybe. Maybe not. I can't think of many rooms anyone wants to do 25-30 times over in a 10-minute time frame, to be perfectly honest, and if you've got any examples, I'd love to see them.

And hell, let's say I accidentally forget a door connection. I'm not about to suddenly forget it's there and release the hold when it's there, but I don't want to go through the room for the /eleventh time in five minutes/ to hit the orb.

Or I put a stone wall in the wrong space. I'm putting it in Architecture anyway, aren't I? If I somehow COMPLETELY FORGET TO REMOVE IT, someone will catch it.
06-27-2006 at 11:00 PM
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Tim
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icon Re: Test warping (+3)  
[sarcasm mode on]
Banjooie wrote:
Is this to say that the first part is too tedious to play? Maybe. Maybe not. I can't think of many rooms anyone wants to do 25-30 times over in a 10-minute time frame, to be perfectly honest, and if you've got any examples, I'd love to see them.
Oh, Banjooie, I can *so* understand what you mean. "Why would *I* have to test my holds and make sure it looks good if there are so many suckers out there who would be willing to do it?"
And hell, let's say I accidentally forget a door connection. I'm not about to suddenly forget it's there and release the hold when it's there, but I don't want to go through the room for the /eleventh time in five minutes/ to hit the orb.
Are you saying that: "it's better to release a hold where the architect 'accidentally' forget a door than not at all?"
Or I put a stone wall in the wrong space. I'm putting it in Architecture anyway, aren't I? If I somehow COMPLETELY FORGET TO REMOVE IT, someone will catch it.
You must really incredibly *love* your testers, by almost intentionally leaving them lots of stuff to find out.

[sarcasm mode off][serious mode on]

But seriously, beta testing is meant that the architect has already done his own testing. Thoroughly.

A good testing strategy is *10-20 times over in a 10-minute time frame*, as you can usually get rid of all bugs in a room. After that, /a few times in two weeks/. I usually leave a candidate room for two weeks before putting into a hold.

As a tester, I don't mind finding out very few "obvious" bugs. But, the more time I have to use to find out those bugs, the less time I can spend on the more interesting things like layout, speech, unintended solutions, or suggestions to hold improvement... And of course, too many obvious bugs will make me think about testing your next hold immediately...

It's your choice, really.

-- Tim

PS. I think it is something that is nice to have, and if it means that Banjooie can ever have one hold (and I don't mean compilation) on the Holds board, then I'm all for it.

PPS. I'd rather have a 'Test with blue doors dropped'-mode.

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[Last edited by Tim at 06-27-2006 11:47 PM]
06-27-2006 at 11:46 PM
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Banjooie
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
Or, maybe, I'm saying 'Look, it is not the end of the world if the architect misses something, and being able to warp around does not automatically mean the hold will suck.'

I am unable to understand this concept wherein architects right now are going 'Wow, this first part is too irritating to do a ton of times repeatedly, and I need to test this second part, so I'mma change the first part!'

Actually, that's a lie. I do understand that.

What I don't understand is how you're utterly convinced that were this feature implemented, /every single architect ever would go/

'Wow, this part is too irritating to do repeatedly. Well, rather than changing it right now, I'm going to warp over it and then NEVER TOUCH THE FIRST PART AGAIN, EVER. Seriously, now that I have warped over this piece of the room, I will completely and forever forget there was anything ever wrong with it, even though I was only using the warp function to test minor changes in the second half of the room. Whoa, when did black become white? Trippy..'
06-28-2006 at 05:20 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
I'm not convinced that every architect will do that. I'm pretty sure that one or two will, but that's not the reason I'm against this request.

The reason is that what's going to happen is that most architects will say "well, I've tested part 1 once and it was fine. But part 2 requires a lot of testing. So, now I can skip part 1 and not test it again any of the 50 times I'm playtesting part 2..."

Which is the recipe for disaster.

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06-28-2006 at 05:50 AM
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Oneiromancer
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
Personally I won't upload a hold to the holds board without having a set of demos from playing through it outside of the editor. (Accidentally deleting them after uploading doesn't count.) So I obviously don't see it as a recipe for disaster for me personally. And I wish that having a full set of demos was a requirement for uploading holds to the board anyway, but that's beside the point.

I think it's silly to argue about this any longer...I don't know that there are really any more points to be made that haven't been made already. I will even withhold my comparisons to communism. ;)

Game on,

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06-28-2006 at 06:00 AM
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Banjooie
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eytanz wrote:
I'm not convinced that every architect will do that. I'm pretty sure that one or two will, but that's not the reason I'm against this request.

The reason is that what's going to happen is that most architects will say "well, I've tested part 1 once and it was fine. But part 2 requires a lot of testing. So, now I can skip part 1 and not test it again any of the 50 times I'm playtesting part 2..."

Which is the recipe for disaster.

Well, presumably, any architect worth his salt plays through at least each level once, when finished? You'd think?
06-28-2006 at 06:02 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: Test warping (+2)  
Both of your posts sort of miss the point. This feature is clearly not going to make anyone but the most incompetant architects create more unsolvable rooms. The issue is that testing should be far more than just testing for unsolvable rooms. It should also provide the architect with a measure of what the room feels like to play through. I believe that in the vast majority of the cases, rooms whose playtesting will be made more pleasent by this feature are poorly designed rooms. Not unsolvable. But if you're not enjoying yourself playtesting a room, that's probably a sign that it's a bad room.

There's a *lot* more to room quality than the binary question of whether it is solvable or not.

But I agree with Neil that there's really no point in rehashing this further, so this will be my last post on the topic unless someone asks me a direct question.

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06-28-2006 at 06:18 AM
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skell
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But if you have to repeat the room many times (20, 30, 50?) because there is still something you want to change doesn't mean that the first part is silly. Try to finish the same hold 3,4 times.

I agree, this will make the uncompetent architects' holds much worse, but it will help the better architects. There always have been bad holds and they always will be. UU, Level Warping may allow to create bad level, but if there were no such features they were simply too lazy to test. Because every good architect always playtest his whole hold, and we don't have to play the not playetested holds, don't we?

And because we already have set of good architects, I Don't think that you try to tell me, that they simply will start to make bad holds because of a level warping feature, aren't you?

hehe, have a nice day ;)

-Maurice Z.

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06-28-2006 at 07:59 AM
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Banjooie
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eytanz wrote:
Not unsolvable. But if you're not enjoying yourself playtesting a room, that's probably a sign that it's a bad room.

Do you really find yourself /gripped with excitement/ doing King Dugan's Dungeon, first level?

No?

I didn't think you did. :(
06-28-2006 at 08:04 AM
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eytanz
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Banjooie wrote:
eytanz wrote:
Not unsolvable. But if you're not enjoying yourself playtesting a room, that's probably a sign that it's a bad room.

Do you really find yourself /gripped with excitement/ doing King Dugan's Dungeon, first level?

No?

I didn't think you did. :(

Huh? What does that have to do with anything I said?

I wasn't around for KDD level 1, but I happened to be around when JtRH level 1 was created. I even made a few of the rooms in it. Sure, it wasn't the most thrilling level ever to playtest, but it was pretty enjoyable and quick.

And I really, really can't see how allowing test warping would have made playtesting JtRH (or KDD) level 1 any faster or better. So none of the rooms on that level were the type of rooms that are relevant to anything I said.

You know, Banjooie, your last three replies appear not to be responses to me but rather to a ridiculous, twisted version of what I'm saying. I honestly don't know at this point if you don't understand me or whether you're simply constructing strawmen to deflect attention from the actual point. If it's the former than honestly, I can't figure out how to be clearer by now. If it's the latter than stop it, we're not politicians.



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06-28-2006 at 01:43 PM
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File: Example.hold (3.5 KB)
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
Here's an example where Test Warping would be a lifesaver.


06-28-2006 at 01:55 PM
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skell
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
[offtopic]
He has a point, but his point shouldn't remain in this topic though.
Through the logical analyze we can say this:
You said that "if you're not enjoying yourself playtesting a room, that's probably a sign that it's a bad room.".
So in other words - not enjoyed level during playtest is a bad level.
It's hard to enjoy playtesting so silly (No offense) KDD lvl 1, so he meant this must be bad level. But it's not. That's how I feel this.[/offtopic]

Again I will say what I keep saying. But in other words. Playtesting hold is divided into four parts:
-Ineditor test, when you test level while making it
-Overall test, when you test the whole hold if it is possible to finish
-Architect's board test, when you put your hold in Architect Board to let other players test it (This may be skipped if the second part have been done carefully :) )
-Hold's board test, when the players play the hold and in meanwhile they test it...

As I said, it is really not fun to have to go 40-50 times throught the same level, or even few levels to say whether it is like I wanted it to be or not. As I said before this may be compared to going through the same hold few times... If you are bored with your level when finishing it for 50th time it doesn't mean it is bad - it means you have already enough of this level. And this may lead to problems with level, when the architect is too tired to test it carfeully. The same goes for hold. If you get bored with finishing the same hold for 3th time it doesn't mean the hold is bad, but it means you're tired of it :).

-Maurice Z.

ps. Ezlo, in your example unfortunately you can just put few tunnels to test it. The better it would be, when you had one room, which must be entered many, many times from different sides (I'm now wroking on something like that actually in Trapoe). What a pain in the... butt it is :).

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[Last edited by skell at 06-28-2006 02:02 PM]
06-28-2006 at 01:57 PM
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icon Re: Test warping (+1)  
skell wrote:
-Architect's board test, when you put your hold in Architect Board to let other players test it (This may be skipped if the second part have been done carefully :) )
I don't think this should ever be skipped. You should always have a group of other people playtest your hold before you post it to holds. You're not just testing for solvability, but also for intangibles like intuitivenes, fun factor, etc. and the author who knows the end from the beginning just doesn't have the perspective to evaluate these from an outsider's point of view. You should only skip posting to Architecture if you've passed the hold around your DROD high school club or something and gotten some non-author feedback (preferably from more than one or two people).
The better it would be, when you had one room, which must be entered many, many times from different sides (I'm now wroking on something like that actually in Trapoe).
Seems like this type of room is perfect for testing with F5. You can pick a new entry spot each time. Although it might be useful to have a "playtest room as already beaten" option if you need to backtrack the room and it's a puzzle even after it's beaten. Or maybe also a "playtest room with completed scripts" where you could select which scripts to have completed.

I honestly don't being able to warp during playtesting would be a very good tool for developing quality holds, pretty much for all the reasons that have been mentioned. You can talk about one or two examples where it might be useful, but I think it would end up being a crutch for many architects and used by habit. And of course for careless architects, it will result in poorer holds (no one is arguing that). The death nail for me, though, is that it would be awkward to implement. The current room state right now is always a function of the initial room state and the moves that have occurred so far. This wouldn't be a serious problem for a genuinely useful tool, but for a dubious one....
Tim wrote:
PPS. I'd rather have a 'Test with blue doors dropped'-mode.
This sounds pretty useful to me.

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06-28-2006 at 07:37 PM
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eytanz
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AlefBet wrote:
Tim wrote:
PPS. I'd rather have a 'Test with blue doors dropped'-mode.
This sounds pretty useful to me.

This is very much agree with.

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06-28-2006 at 08:08 PM
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skell
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Good point Alefbet. This won't be useful many, many times, but still it is helpful. And now we are returning to Anti-UU-Discussion's-Arguments : Quality. Many people said that it will make the quality lower. You say here the same. And I will tell you that: If you enjoy Holds making, you will make good rooms no matter how many skippers and features you have. There were good holds before the UU in the editor was implemented, and there are good holds when the UU in editor is implemented. There are good holds before Test Warping, and I can bet everything that there still be good holds when the Test Warping will be implemented (If ever). I'm making my hold. Really slow. Why, you might ask? Because I have pedantic attitude to this. When I want to create forest I'm not putting the same tree's graphic in a linear manner, but rather try to make it as random as I can to make it look really good. When I'm making puzzles I try to make them as most enjoyable as I can. I'm sure that there are lots of architect who are acting like me. And the Test Warping wouldn't change the Hold's quality, because they won't use warp to create trees, nor use warp to create puzzles. They will not use Warping to make a long and detailed script. They won't use warp in final testing. Or maybe I'm wrong? So it goes from the other side. There were bad holds before UU, there are bad after UU. There are bad Before TW (Testing Warp), and they still be bad afte TW. Just Banjooie said "if we gave people a button that says 'Click here to make your hold 10/10 votes, guaranteed', and it would make your hold not suck no matter what, people would still produce crappy holds."

You say, that I can use multiple restarts to create that room...
The better it would be, when you had one room, which must be entered many, many times from different sides (I'm now wroking on something like that actually in Trapoe).

Seems like this type of room is perfect for testing with F5. You can pick a new entry spot each time. Although it might be useful to have a "playtest room as already beaten" option if you need to backtrack the room and it's a puzzle even after it's beaten. Or maybe also a "playtest room with completed scripts" where you could select which scripts to have completed.
I meant a room whcih must be entered from one side to kill an NPC so he won't open that Goblin's chamber in critical moment, so I can go further in the level just to return from the other side to kill the stationar guard which keeps in jail Civilian. After that I must get from the other side to kill another guard who comes through a tunnel to kill that Civilian, so he can help me and open the door which will let me go save another civilian so I can return to the main chamber and kill the enemies. Multi restarting won't work here.

And about the Architect's board I meant (Even though I didn't wrote this) that it can be skipped in necessity.

Doubt I changed anyone's mind but well.

-Maurice Z.

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06-28-2006 at 08:11 PM
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AlefBet
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icon Re: Test warping (0)  
skell wrote:
And now we are returning to Anti-UU-Discussion's-Arguments : Quality.
For the record, I was in favor of unlimited undo in the editor. I think that is a very useful tool for playtesting holds. (And coincidentally it was easy to implement.) I think this feature, OTOH, is not.
You say, that I can use multiple restarts to create that room...

...

I meant a room whcih must be entered from one side to kill an NPC so he won't open that Goblin's chamber in critical moment, so I can go further in the level just to return from the other side to kill the stationar guard which keeps in jail Civilian. After that I must get from the other side to kill another guard who comes through a tunnel to kill that Civilian, so he can help me and open the door which will let me go save another civilian so I can return to the main chamber and kill the enemies. Multi restarting won't work here.
Which is why I think allowing scripts and green doors to be set at the beginning of room playtesting would be perfect here. I think it would solve this problem fairly effectively, would be useful in other contexts, and would be straightforward to implement.

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++Adam H. Peterson
06-28-2006 at 08:42 PM
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