Syntax
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Now... this *is* good

Well, with regards to helping debugging as it could point to why full demo uploads doesn't work, as well as a few other things.

I'm playing the new "Super Spy" hold, and on level 1 North. I've completed this room 4 times. Each time it's been a number 1 but I was obviously trying to improve on this (Grrr... Michthro ).

Every time I complete it, the entry appears on the hold's high score page. I left it a while, hit refresh, and it no longer appears. My assumption is that the spider got round to checking it and found it invalid. Yet it's perfectly valid. If the spider is indeed marking valid demos as invalid, this could explain why full demo uploads doesn't work for certain rooms.

My consecutive move count is (GMT):
251 @ 5:50 pm (April 22)
248 @ 5:52 pm (April 22)
243 @ 5:53 pm (April 22)
243 @ 5:55 pm (April 22)

Is the spider validating against the latest patch? I'm using .13
I thought that maybe it had to do with the fact that:
a) I'm starting from a cracked wall
b) The previous room is an unsolved secret room
c) It's Saturday

But having just looked at wallu's 259 starting position, it's actually the same. So unless he solved the secret room first, I can't see why there would be any difference.

michthro
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Syntax wrote:
Each time it's been a number 1 but I was obviously trying to improve on this (Grrr... Michthro ).

Huh? I don't even have a score for the room. As a matter of fact, I'm having exactly the same problem. After having a lot of trouble uploading a demo at all, it only lasted a while before the spider kicked it. I also start from the secret wall, and end down the stairs.

Syntax
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Sorry... I meant that since Nov 05 there is now way getting a number 1 is enough without replaying at least 10 times as you will no doubt come along and rinse it.

Seriously... You have some ridiculous skills and have redefined what it is to be a great DROD player.

michthro
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www... Thanks. Quite a compliment, coming from the guy who less than two months ago burst into the top 10, and is now already at #6 (by 1 point!). Well, I like things neat and clean.
Not as if you haven't done your fair share of rinsing my scores. I see you've even incited your girlfriend to do the same. Or is she really your alter ego? So you can move people from #1 to #3 in one go? hmmmm... Think I'm beginning to understand why you are so quick with the conspiracy theories.

Syntax
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michthro wrote:
www... Thanks. Quite a compliment, coming from the guy who less than two months ago burst into the top 10, and is now already at #6 (by 1 point!). Well, I like things neat and clean.
Not as if you haven't done your fair share of rinsing my scores. I see you've even incited your girlfriend to do the same. Or is she really your alter ego? So you can move people from #1 to #3 in one go? hmmmm... Think I'm beginning to understand why you are so quick with the conspiracy theories.

rofl! Nicely remembered.

Interestingly, I've been chasin' Larrymuck for a while, and the number #1 I'm talking about above was the first level which would take me above him which I see as an honour. It's also how I noticed the flaw though, as every time I refreshed the screen, I was back to #7 instead of #6.

I've been meaning to post some sort of "Is michthro truly human?" thread for a while now, but not sure which forum it should be on.

Oh, and VodkaAndCoke agrees. Of course she does. We both do. The 2 of us. Sepppppparate people we are... Oh yes. Her ? me ? We *both* do... that's what we do. We agree all the time. Shut up! No! Yes! I'm talking to michthro! No....... yes..... ok, you win... here's the PC.

(she always wins)

((shut up))

(((No I wo....

{silence}

eytanz
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File: TV Tunnel Kingdom 8N6E Victory.demo (854 bytes)
Downloaded 42 times.
License: Public Domain

Back to the topic, I've just encountered a spider issue.

I replayed Tunnel Vision 8N6E since I realized it was a trivial room that I had a non-optimal solution for. While this room features master walls, my new demo didn't include me crossing them.

Nonetheless, the spider rejects my demo for no reason I can see. It is 100% identical in the move sequence to Rabscuttle's demo, which is currently 1st place.

I'm attaching the relevant demo, maybe it will help find the problem. This might be related to my mysterious disappearing score from 9N6E in the same hold that I complained to Schik about a while back.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!

michthro
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That's odd. It probably means that Schik's been tinkering with the spider code, and a bug crept in. So Rabscuttle's demo was verified before the change, and hasn't been re-verified. There's also been some other strange behaviour I've never seen before: In this same hold I had a lot of 1-move demos that took a while to be removed. In the past they'd never appear in the first place.

michthro
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Back off topic. (Sorry)

Syntax wrote:
...Larrymuck...

*ahem* Just because you caught someone on the high score table doesn't mean you should start calling them names.

Syntax wrote:
I've been meaning to post some sort of "Is michthro truly human?" thread for a while now, but not sure which forum it should be on.

Seriously, please don't draw attention to me. You've opened your big mouth about my scores before, and, apart from the embarrassment, unleashed a massive attack on me.

Syntax wrote:
Oh, and VodkaAndCoke agrees... We agree all the time...
(she always wins)

That's good. Very good. I was a little concerned to read in the "Grammar contest" thread that you apparently don't know better than to argue with your girlfriend. They're always right, and they always win. Simple as that. Which reminds me: I noticed that you actually took a #1 from her, and thought I should point out that that amounts to arguing. She says: "This is how you do it.", and you say: "No, this is better." The fact that your lower score constitutes incontrovertible proof of your argument is completely irrelevant - she's always right, and she always wins.

Tahnan
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No, no, really, there was a topic. To which I think this is related; the whole spider thing confuses me.

In "The Super Spy: Back at HQ: 2E", I'm not sure why there were high scores at all--there are no monsters in the room. So I went through it (230 moves, second place), and then said, "Hey, wait...", restored, went in, went out, got a (1 move) first place.

But when I checked back, minutes later, that had been removed--as had my 230-move score. If a room has a one-move solution, doesn't it get removed from high score consideration (cf 1S on that floor)? What's going on there?

(Edit: my 2-move score has also just been removed. Is there some sense in which this is "not verified"?)

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 04-23-2006 10:20 AM]

michthro
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Demos in which you move through master walls don't count for high scores. That should explain why your 2-move demo's been removed. I don't know what's supposed to happen if you start on a master wall and exit straight away. Probably the same, which means there's no problem so far. But yes, there is a problem with 1-move demos being uploaded. I've never before seen a 1-move score displayed on CaravelNet. The room is always removed immediately.
So, in your case it could be that your 1-move demo is considered invalid because you start on a master wall, and so the room shouldn't be removed, but there were other 1-move rooms that took some time to be removed. And of course there's the problem with perfectly valid demos being removed, which I think is the actual topic of this thread.
I've probably only added to your confusion, but the answer's in there somewhere.

Tahnan
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michthro wrote:
Demos in which you move through master walls don't count for high scores.

Ah! That's the crucial fact I didn't know. (Are all these things recorded somewhere?)

I suspect, then, that it's not a bug that my 230-move demo was deleted, just an unfortuntate side effect: a better demo was recorded, the 230-move one was removed, and then the "better" one was legitimately rejected by the spider, leaving no demo at all. Perhaps a score shouldn't be deleted until after the one replacing it is confirmed?

michthro
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Tahnan wrote:
Ah! That's the crucial fact I didn't know. (Are all these things recorded somewhere?)

I wish they were. As it is, they're spread around all over the forum. It would really help a lot if someone who knows all these little details collected them somewhere. I'd do it, but I'm still discovering these things myself. For instance, only after doing the infamous 25-orb puzzle in Deep Hold, I discovered what right-clicking on an orb does.

Tahnan wrote: Perhaps a score shouldn't be deleted until after the one replacing it is confirmed?

Yes, there is a little problem with that, which was mentioned here.

Syntax
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michthro wrote:
Demos in which you move through master walls don't count for high scores.

I think, in fact, that they don't count *as long as both entering and exiting the room is through a master wall*.
The Super Spy hold, Back at HQ, 2E does have highscores, and you enter on a master wall.

Interisitngly, I got a 1 move demo for that room, which the spider correctly rejected. However, since then I can't get high scores for the room (and before the 1 move demo, I did get a correct demo which the spider accepted).

Is it possible that once a spider rejects a demo, no further demos can be submitted for that room by that player? It's as though my high score "slot* for that room has been used up and not reset.

[EDIT]

Typo

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[Last edited by Syntax at 04-23-2006 07:14 PM]

eytanz
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You can enter the room on a master wall whether it is open or closed, which is why that's ok.

Any score that requires the door to be open to work will be rejected

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KevG
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Syntax wrote:
Is it possible that once a spider rejects a demo, no further demos can be submitted for that room by that player? It's as though my high score "slot* for that room has been used up and not reset.

There's likely something else going on. In the entrance of KDD 2.0 crossing the Master Wall causes you to lose your score for the room. However, not only was I able to restore my score, I was able to lose and restore it again. Of course I did this by completing the room again; I don't know if it's possible to reload a valid demo after it's been replaced by an invalid one.

Tahnan
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Just my luck to not have read the relevant post on the Site board. Ah, well. As far as Syntax's concern:

Syntax wrote:
Is it possible that once a spider rejects a demo, no further demos can be submitted for that room by that player? It's as though my high score "slot* for that room has been used up and not reset.

No, because I do in fact now have a (legitimate) high score for the aforementioned room.

However, I suspect that DROD only uploads a demo for scoring if it's actually the best demo you have for the room. Before replaying the room for the 204-move demo, I deleted the 1-move demo for the room, lest DROD say, "204? Not worth it;he's done it in 1." What would be ideal is for the game itself to not record a non-verifiable demo, but the game may not have the capacity to distinguish?

Syntax
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I think that is indeed what is going on.
Thanks! I'll delete my 1-move demo and see if that works

Schik
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At least some of these problems are due to a bug that I believe I have just fixed. The spider's re-verifying a bunch of demos now.

____________________________
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--Mahatma Gandhi

Schik
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michthro wrote:
There's also been some other strange behaviour I've never seen before: In this same hold I had a lot of 1-move demos that took a while to be removed. In the past they'd never appear in the first place.

This is intentional. Since a 1-move demo will remove all other demos for that room, it only makes sense that the 1-move demo must be verified first.

____________________________
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--Mahatma Gandhi

Syntax
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Schik wrote:
At least some of these problems are due to a bug that I believe I have just fixed. The spider's re-verifying a bunch of demos now.

Excellent news! /me sits tight...

Krissan
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I made a full score upload now to check. I got a few (7-8) old high-scores accepted (around 1200 demos). However, I still have loads of "lost" scores.

____________________________
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michthro
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Schik wrote:

michthro wrote:
There's also been some other strange behaviour I've never seen before: In this same hold I had a lot of 1-move demos that took a while to be removed. In the past they'd never appear in the first place.

This is intentional. Since a 1-move demo will remove all other demos for that room, it only makes sense that the 1-move demo must be verified first.

Oh, sure. I wasn't complaining - just thought I'd mention it, since it is new, in case it had something to do with the bug.
With which, btw, I have the honour of bestowing on you your 2000th rank point! Hope no-one mods you down so they can do it instead.

Syntax
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Schik wrote:
At least some of these problems are due to a bug that I believe I have just fixed. The spider's re-verifying a bunch of demos now.

Guess I'm being impatient, but has the spider finished processing with the bug-fix? With regards to my original post, this has not fixed itself as of yet...

Schik
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Syntax wrote:

Schik wrote:
At least some of these problems are due to a bug that I believe I have just fixed. The spider's re-verifying a bunch of demos now.

Guess I'm being impatient, but has the spider finished processing with the bug-fix? With regards to my original post, this has not fixed itself as of yet...

No, it's got a good number left to go. Oh, I just realized they probably don't show up on the highscores page as pending verification. Sorry about that... It's going to be quite a while, as it tries to not only keep up with new demos but verify a lot of old previously deleted ones. I'll see what I can do to speed it up.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

Schik
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A little update: I temporarily added the number of previously deleted demos that need to be re-verified to the myscores page, since there are a lot and it's taking a very long time.

____________________________
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--Mahatma Gandhi

Syntax
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:

Wow! But what if it fixes all the issues? Whatever then? What will I be able to write about?

Nicely done!

Hikari
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File: transtar.png (87.7 KB)
Downloaded 688 times.
License: Public Domain

Um... does this re-checking of all the deleted scores thing have anything to do with the fact that the high scores page is down?

____________________________
Caravel Official Holds Progress:

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[Last edited by Hikari at 07-05-2008 08:47 AM]

Schik
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Hikari wrote:
Um... does this re-checking of all the deleted scores thing have anything to do with the fact that the high scores page is down?

No, not really. Just coincidence.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

Syntax
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The high score pages are still down. Any ideas when they'll be back? Can't wait to see the spider's handiwork

Schik
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Syntax wrote:
The high score pages are still down. Any ideas when they'll be back? Can't wait to see the spider's handiwork

Before I can estimate how close the high scores page is to being done, I have to make a new progress bar for it, and then a new riddle for said bar.

But seriously, I hope to have it back up this weekend. I'm recoding big chunks to speed it up - it was terrible how few hits the highscores page needed in a row to slow down the server. Then once we verify that high scores aren't being erroneously deleted, I can purge the deleted ones once and for all.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi