Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

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Being the adventurous soul that I am, I created a hold that has more than one stairway in it, and you can move up and down and choose a section of the hold to attempt to complete. I even came up with an ingenious way to ensure that people complete all the other sections before they can do the last.

Exept, of course, it doesn't quite work. This is because
a) DROD loads levels as they are, not at they were when you last visited them. For Dugan's Dungeon, and other linear holds, this is the same thing, but if you want people to be able to complete a hold in sections, skipping whole levels and comig back to them, this becomes a problem. I'd like to see using a stairwell to return to levels you've already visited reflect that you've already done them (i.e. being empty).

b) You can't have more than one entrance to a level, but multiple exits. This means that you have to be really careful when you do branching, even if the game loads where you were up to. I could live without it (and probably should, considering all the weird stuff that would happen if you tinker with this), but it'd be neat nonetheless to allow multiple entrances. In programmer's terms, it's a bit like only having pre-condition loops in your language. If only there were post-condition loops, we wouldn't have to repeat the same code twice, and it'd be more elegant, but we can live without it, I suppose.

Matt

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zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

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Well...you could make a hold appear non-linear, using copy and paste. Kind of like a "Choose your own adventure" I suppose...I'm curious as to how you would ensure that all the levels are done. I suppose the multiple entrances would do that...

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StuartK
Level: Smitemaster

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Related suggestions.

1) Make stairs to a level somehow reflect whether that level has been completed or not. Maybe not disable going to the level, just change the stair colour or something.

2) Make certain stairs accessible, conditional on other levels having been completed first. I'm guessing this would be some kind of gate, with toggles for each level in a hold.

and/or

3) Global switches, which affect gates elsewhere in a level, or across the entire hold. These would be 'open' only, so no complex gate puzzles across multiple rooms (though the potential would be there for secret levels etc, but then IMO access to new/secret areas as a reward for completing particularly difficult rooms is a good thing)


Restoring to the best time/place could be problematic, when an entire hold could be completed in any order, and a restore point has to include not only data for the current level, but other levels. Would the restore point include data regarding half completed levels elsewhere in the hold?

I'd certainly like to see something like the above, if the complications could be resolved.




As a side note, I have created a gate room, to achieve something like the above, though there would be no level memory. In one room, it provides access to a maximum of 22 different levels, by a set of 7 numbers which are used to toggle a specific set of switches from 154 to open 7 gates to a specific stair. When configuring the switches, the designer would select the correct gate, and a random number of other gates to open/close/toggle (I suggest up to 10 for each switch, with a predisposition to closing gates) With luck, should be fairly proof to a player skipping ahead to a level they're not supposed to be at, and would allow for things like secret levels etc. It would be better for such a gate to be on a level of its own, which can be returned to, but need not be completed. I haven't tested it yet, this is all just half assed theory. Something like this would be useful for testing large dungeons, or skipping earlier levels, as successive releases of dungeons in progress reach us.

[Edited by StuartK on 07-14-2003 at 01:12 AM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Unfortunately, the behavior you're describing is accurate, but we're not planning to alter the save format to include persistent room/level/hold/inter-hold state. This would cause the data files to balloon in size, slow the game down a lot, probably cause all kinds of synchronization bugs, and generally wreak havoc at the Roasted Roach Grill.

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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How about allowing multiple entry points per level? i.e., letting you mark more than one room as an "entrance" (you'll probably have to name each entrance), and then let the stairs point to entrances rather than levels? That would allow for nice non-linear feelings (you could choose between an easier or harder entrance point, for instance, or between an entrance that allows access to secret rooms and one that doesn't).

Not sure how feasible this is - if it's a big project, it's probably not worth it - but it's probably easier to do than saving level states.

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mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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I agree having multiple entrance is a neat idea, and then you could really do multi-level puzzles, and things where you have to find the stairs to the secret room in another level before its blue door opens, etc. I've thought about it a lot, but I just don't think we'll get to that in this version. Maybe in the next one...

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2708
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Yeah, this does seem like something that can happily wait for the future, and shouldn't slow down 1.6.

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Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

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Registered: 05-29-2003
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Well, if multiple entrances are easy enough to do, that's great! Very useful, just as soon as I work out some cunning way to use them.

My proposal with the loading level states is basically this:

Put a check upon loading a level to see if data for that level exists in the player file. If so, load the level as per the player file, then put Beethro in the entrance, or if that's too complicated, put him where he was last. As the player moves, only update that part of the level. Basically, reload from their last save on that level.

Unless the player file is set up not to allow that, and I'll shut up and dream of what might have been... either that, or make a hold with 70 levels, only 10 of which you get to see.

Matt

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