J.L.
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 38
Registered: 06-17-2003
IP: Logged

In Seventh Level, 2N 1W, Beethro says the serpent is 1445 feet long*, and therefore is not obliged to smite it. But Beethro can't finish Twelfth Level without killing a serpent in 1S 2E a great deal longer than that!


*

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

J.L. wrote:
In Seventh Level, 2N 1W, Beethro says the serpent is 1445 feet long*, and therefore is not obliged to smite it. But Beethro can't finish Twelfth Level without killing a serpent in 1S 2E a great deal longer than that!

Well, he's still got to get the blue doors to come down, right? There's practical obligations as well as contractual.

*

Click here to view the secret text

×RANDOM TRIVIA FOR MATH HEADS:
If my calculations are correct, this means a DROD square is about 4.817 feet long, or 23.2 square feet.

Officially, DROD squares are 5x5 feet (25 square feet) and the serpent length should have been derived from that. Did we get the calc wrong?

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

J.L.
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 38
Registered: 06-17-2003
IP: Logged

File: serpmath.PNG (189.6 KB)
Downloaded 73 times.
License: Public Domain

I counted 300 snake bites. Here's a picture of the snake broken up into three parts, some height/length measuring, and multiplication on the side.

In all fairness, he DOES say "at least" 1445 feet, but that's a kind of strange number to use when there's the much nicer sounding 1500 feet.

---

[Last edited by J.L. at 10-05-2005 04:02 AM]

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Clearly he got tired of counting by that point.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Simple. Smitemaster regulations stipulate that no delver has to destroy a snake longer than 1445 feet. It is longer than 1445 feet, therefore he is freed from that task.

Flawlessly consistent.

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

1445 = 0x5A5. Many denizens of the Eighth (especially beaurocrats... even the smitemaster's guild has beaurocrats!) prefer to use hexadecimal rather than decimal when expressing numbers since 16 = 8x2. And from there, 0x5A5 is clearly more desirable a number than 0x5DC since its the same going forwards as backwards.

____________________________
Progress Quest Progress

AlefBet
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 979
Registered: 07-16-2003
IP: Logged

stigant wrote:
And from there, 0x5A5 is clearly more desirable a number than 0x5DC since its the same going forwards as backwards.

I like it. Especially since 0xA is twice 0x5. So, 0x5A5 has some of the same aesthetics in hex as, say, 242 or 363 do in decimal.

____________________________
I was charged with conspiracy to commit jay-walking, and accessory to changing lanes without signaling after the fact .

++Adam H. Peterson

wmarkham
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged

The curved segments are almost certainly shorter than the straight segments. I count 64 in the top section of serpmath.PNG, 70 in the middle one, and 9 in the last. That's a total of 143 curved segments, each of which is maybe 1 foot shorter than a straight one. (5 * pi / 4 ~= 3.925) The head and tail segments are, say, another 4 feet shorter than the equivalent straight segments, total. So, 1500 - 143 - 4 = 1353 feet. I think perhaps Beethro made a mistake there....

Weston

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

wmarkham wrote:
I think perhaps Beethro made a mistake there....

Ah, that's how I can get out of this. Beethro made the mistake--not me! In Clearing School, they only teach the very basics of arithmetic--no trigonometry.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Flawlessly consistent once again!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

The curved segments are almost certainly shorter than the straight segments.

Unless the snake squeezes and stretches like an accordion, I don't think that works.

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:

The curved segments are almost certainly shorter than the straight segments.

Unless the snake squeezes and stretches like an accordion, I don't think that works.

But why not?

If you assume that the line the serpent's length is measured from is the line going through the centre of it, and that when it goes around a corner, it roughly traces out 1/4 of a circle's circumference, the length of the curved segment is...

... (2 * pi * 2.5) / 4 (assume the centre of the serpent goes through the centre of the square)

= (5 * pi) / 4
= 1.25 * pi
= 3.93 feet to 3 s.f.


____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

Blood Maggot
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 42
Registered: 06-28-2004
IP: Logged

We could just solve this by assuming that the LV12 snake is naturally as long as the LV7 snake. When anything goes into the LV 12 snake room, it magically stretches (beethro is immune to the stretch status ailment)

Wait... that doesn't seem like a good answer :/

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:
Unless the snake squeezes and stretches like an accordion, I don't think that works.
But why not?

*math*

= 3.93 feet to 3 s.f.

Just so I can get this totally right, are you saying that a snake length is 3.93 feet long on a curved square? ...except, you know, in some form of english that makes sense?

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Why do so many fantasy worlds use feet? That's what I'm wondering.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Well, it's a natural method of distance measuring when the most common mode of transportation is walking. I'd much more expect a "natural" system of measurements in a feudal society than a mathematical one, like the metric system.

Actually, I have seen some fantasy books where they combine the two systems. For example, there are 10 inches to a foot instead of 12. The mile is then some factor of 10 number of feet. But they aren't called meters or kilometers or anything...because that's not really "natural". They'll go for feet, cubits, hands, leagues, etc., colloquial stuff like that.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Banjooie wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
Unless the snake squeezes and stretches like an accordion, I don't think that works.
But why not?

*math*

= 3.93 feet to 3 s.f.

Just so I can get this totally right, are you saying that a snake length is 3.93 feet long on a curved square? ...except, you know, in some form of english that makes sense?

Umm...

It might not have been exactly the clearest of phrases, but I can't believe it's that incomprehensible, especially not to people with a reasonable grounding in basic mathematics and a bit of imagination. If it doesn't make sense to you, then just say so; you don't need to (and it's inaccurate anyway) to imply it makes no sense to anyone else either.

Anyway, to answer your question, the serpent segment has a length of about 3.9 feet as it goes around a corner, for the reason given above.

Without the maths, it can be explained by the idea that as the snake turns in a circle, some of the snake will be further from the centre of the circle than other parts, so some parts will stretch more than others, or become compressed. To illustrate this, bend something long and flexible, like a ruler. The outer edge will stretch as it gets longer, while the inner one will compress as it gets shorter. So, the idea is that we assume that the parts of the serpent that do not stretch or compress are along its centre, and that its outer edges do. Therefore, the serpent's effective length if it were suddenly pulled and straightened is then the length of the line that goes through the middle of the serpent, which is 1/4 of the arc of a circle, with radius 2.5 feet.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

J.L.
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 38
Registered: 06-17-2003
IP: Logged

ErikH2000 wrote:
Ah, that's how I can get out of this. Beethro made the mistake--not me! In Clearing School, they only teach the very basics of arithmetic--no trigonometry.

You're not done yet! Trigonometry or not, that doesn't explain how he arrived at 1445 feet.

---

[Last edited by J.L. at 10-14-2005 06:02 AM]

Alneyan
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 622
Registered: 07-06-2004
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
Why do so many fantasy worlds use feet? That's what I'm wondering.

Besides, using that sort of measure allows the players to work on their math skills, particularly if, for one reason or another, they have to do the maths on their own. Converting metres in inches is amazingly annoying: 142 centimetres divided by 2.54 isn't *exactly* friendly. Role-playing games ought to feature such devices instead of dice rolls: the more accurate your result, and the fastest you can get it, the better your action. So, 65 X 87 gives? You have three seconds to get a critical success.

I haven't seen many units besides feet and pounds in fantasy games, though. I guess furlongs and their ilk aren't so popular these days.

wmarkham
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 125
Registered: 12-06-2004
IP: Logged

agaricus5 wrote:

Banjooie wrote:
Just so I can get this totally right, are you saying that a snake length is 3.93 feet long on a curved square? ...except, you know, in some form of english that makes sense?

Umm...

It might not have been exactly the clearest of phrases, but I can't believe it's that incomprehensible, especially not to people with a reasonable grounding in basic mathematics and a bit of imagination.

Er. I think he was poking fun at his own wording. I could be wrong. And I think his initial point was not that the sides of the snake need to accordion themselves, but rather the entire snake over time, if it moves in such a way as to uncoil or coil itself (i.e., change the number of curved segments). I could, again, be wrong.

Weston

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

Yeah, YOU were clear. I just wrote a horrific sentence, and wanted to note I was aware I had done so. Except I apparently failed at that, too. Go me!

jamie
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 365
Registered: 04-15-2005
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
Well, it's a natural method of distance measuring when the most common mode of transportation is walking. I'd much more expect a "natural" system of measurements in a feudal society than a mathematical one, like the metric system.

I think it's where you're from. To me (in the UK), and presumably most Europeans and Australians, metres is the natural method of distance measuring when the most common mode of transportation is walking.

In the UK at least, feet and temperatures in fahrenheight are for people over 60 :-)

____________________________
#f3i2g# Disclaimer: I'm Welsh, left-handed, and stupid. #f3i2g#

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

jamie wrote:
In the UK at least, feet and temperatures in fahrenheight are for people over 60 :-)

Um...that kind of proves my point. Those are archaic units of measurement, which makes sense in a fantasy world. The UK didn't start using the metric system until relatively recently. Scientists in the US use the metric system quite naturally, but not much other than that. I'm willing to bet it's mostly sports that cause the biggest resistance to the metric system.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

leroy00
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 155
Registered: 09-30-2003
IP: Logged

jamie wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:
Well, it's a natural method of distance measuring when the most common mode of transportation is walking. I'd much more expect a "natural" system of measurements in a feudal society than a mathematical one, like the metric system.

I think it's where you're from. To me (in the UK), and presumably most Europeans and Australians, metres is the natural method of distance measuring when the most common mode of transportation is walking.

In the UK at least, feet and temperatures in fahrenheight are for people over 60 :-)

Well, I see what you mean, in that 1 metre ~ 1 stride, but the imperial unit system (see, you Brits are at fault for that in the first place) also has 1 yard = 3 feet ~ 1 stride. Incidentally, the league used to be about one day's journey by foot, to support Onei's theory. 1 league ~ 4830 metres.

I never could make much sense out of the base 12/base 60/base 360 systems myself. There are people out there who claim the base 12 system is a proof that people once had 12 fingers. So anyway, once I sat beside a mathematician on a trans-atlantic flight, and we started talking, and I asked him about the base 12 system. He said: "Imagine you have 3 kids and want to divide something between them. Base 12 makes it easy, as it does for two or four. And if you include five, you get base 60. It's all about the least common multiple." I found that pretty convincing.

-leroy

____________________________
You can hear happiness staggering on down the street -- footless, dressed in red.
-Jimi Hendrix, "The Wind Cries Mary"

krammer
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 904
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged

jamie wrote:
I think it's where you're from. To me (in the UK), and presumably most Europeans and Australians, metres is the natural method of distance measuring when the most common mode of transportation is walking.

In the UK at least, feet and temperatures in fahrenheight are for people over 60 :-)

Really? So you prefer kilometres to miles? You measure height in cm rather than feet and inches? I somehow doubt this.

Fahrenheit (it's a German name, nothing to do with height) yes, because the weather forecasts all use Centigrade and have done for some time. But not feet. I'd still say my home town was 200ft above sea level, still say I'm 5'9", still say my road was about 200 yards long, and I'd certainly say the city centre was 6 miles away. Imperial is still going strong in Britain I'm afraid.

____________________________
+++ Divide by Cucumber Error +++ Please Reinstall Universe and Reboot +++

"Oook!"

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Well, I'd use metres, except for human height (where you really can't beat 6" for an average male human). It's much of a muchness.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5088
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Mattcrampy wrote:
Well, I'd use metres, except for human height (where you really can't beat 6" for an average male pixie).

Fixed.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

bandit1200
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 290
Registered: 10-29-2003
IP: Logged

jamie wrote:In the UK at least, feet and temperatures in fahrenheight are for people over 60 :-)

Hang on! You'll have me retired soon! I'm not quite that old yet, though, as time somehow seems to get compressed as you get older, the next 5 years should pass in about 18 months.
As it happens, I can use either system with equal ease - or equal difficulty, depending on the job.

Banjooie
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1645
Registered: 12-12-2004
IP: Logged

krammer wrote:
Really? So you prefer kilometres to miles? You measure height in cm rather than feet and inches? I somehow doubt this.

I'm from Canada, I'm 1.82 m, and frankly, I've never used any distance measurement other than a click. Which is, well, a kilometer. Sorry!*


*We're technically Britain-owned, so we count! Go us!

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

As I said, I use metres for everything. I don't even know you silly archaic feet or how to write using them.

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?