Muzozavr
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 03-16-2006
IP: Logged

Yes, I do still have saved copies of pre-Draconis ST1 and ST2... Not that I retained my player.cfg with unsubmitted Legend in ST1 (never got Ultimate back then), but that's OK, it's been ages anyway, so might as well replay.

Returned to these games some time ago and managed to get pretty far with hard mode in ST2, but Devilish Puzzles is not going well because of the 3x4 rock formation that I can't get past. The weird part, though, is that I can get past it if I remake that section of the level in the editor, which makes me feel like this isn't actually my fault, but a bug that never got fixed.

Due to how rocks roll in this game, if
At this point, in the editor the top two rocks in column 2 both roll to the right (top, then bottom) in a similar "stack roll" formation, allowing the last rock to fall. However, in the level, only the top rock from column 2 rolls. This means the last rock never rolls away and I get no passage.

Interestingly, occasionally even the first step might not work as expected within the level, whereas it seems to work always when this part is recreated in the editor. It's not about how you prepare the previous parts of the puzzle (do you have enough space and such), the rocks literally do not roll in a consistent manner between the editor and the level, and occasionally even within the level itself.

My current theory is that this sort of "stack roll" mechanic requires very accurate roll timing (down to a single frame) and if something interrupts this process it may not work as expected. There are three enemies elsewhere in the level, and I can theoretically envision them having some impact on the move timings, but if that's the case, we're having some Don't Try This At Home kind of nonsense, except by accident (and a lot worse). I *did* try shouting at the enemies to change how they move, but so far it hasn't helped.

My questions are:
1) Is this really a bug, or is there some subtle-yet-logical reason why the same exact moves would produce different results in editor/level?
2) Is there any alternate solution that's actually consistent from a player's perspective or am I just supposed to keep ramming at it until the physics engine randomly cooperates? (Considering that I'm not the only person who had trouble here, and one of the only descriptions mentioned "running along the top" and/or "just running fast and having it all sort of fall into place", there might not actually be a consistent strategy. Of course an existing successful demo will always work due to always having the same timing for all objects, but we can't exactly rely on such strict and inscrutable timings "just working out".)
3. Was 1.4 the last version of ST2, or am I missing a later one that would've coincidentally fixed this?

P.S. One more "I think this is a bug" bit: in regards to Eye Queue Tree, I'm pretty sure that a Roman mile Caught me very off-guard.

EDIT: Spoilered a bit (should've done this earlier) and had a PM exchange with slackaxeable (one of the only people still playing the game) and confirmed the issue really exists and may have sth to do with specific timings. It's not just me, my idea for the solution is right, and the rocks really just don't cooperate most of the time, you have to basically get lucky. Frustrating, but The Stew Boy can be proud for setting up a completely new, never-before-seen human RNG system, by accident.

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[Last edited by Muzozavr at 10-07-2024 07:15 AM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

File: Devilish Puzzles.ST2 (3.6 KB)
Downloaded 2 times.
License: Public Domain

Hi there!

Thank you for posting! This looks like a weird situation based on object order, which IS a thing in the game, and very occasionally may lead to weird results (this is what levels like Don't Try This At Home are based on). This is not affected by object movement, but by destroying objects. It's not actually random, but an earlier section of the level has a bunch of bombs, and their explosions count as objects that are removed in a hard-to-predict order. But in order to investigate and/or fix this, I would need to have a demo file that shows the issue, meaning that somebody (you?) would have to build a level that has the issue, and then solve it. I'd be interested in investigating.

Come to think of it, what would probably work is edit the level, add an easy to reach exit just around those rocks, and then play until the rocks hang, and exit. That should generate a demo showing the bug. I'll attach the level source here in case that helps.

Is this a bug? I suppose technically it's not, in the same sense that DTTAH is not a bug. That said, I prefer not having this behavior in levels. Some of the later level designers tried to push the boundary on what was permissible in levels, but this level doesn't really look like one of them. A simplified version of this level appears in Draconis (because not all objects from the level exist in Draconis) and at first glance doesn't have this issue (as in, on my first try I successfully completed everything up to this stack).

And I don't remember when or why I wrote that specific Eye Queue question, but per Wikipedia you are correct and that level is bugged. Thanks for pointing that out


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= Radiant =

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[Last edited by Radiant at 10-11-2024 12:19 AM]

Muzozavr
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 03-16-2006
IP: Logged

File: Devilish Puzzles.ST2 (2.4 KB)
Downloaded 2 times.
License: Public Domain

I think this is the right file to attach? It looks like it just saves the replay directly in the level file. If that goes OK, you will see exactly what I mean with the rocks not rolling properly. I guess my bomb solution is a little too efficient, I don't need the jinx or anything...

Anyway, so it depends on the bombs? That's really weird, I'd think the explosions were removed from the game entirely as soon as the smoke is gone, but apparently they still influence things. I was thinking about enemy movement instead because enemies continue moving throughout, but this means it's not about timing, it's about bombs. Meaning that I was irredeemably screwed regardless of when I did things by the time I hit that last save disk.

(On the plus side: if it's really the bombs, then any working solution should be consistent enough and reproducible, just hard to predict.)

I'll try some different bomb solutions later, then, since this is the last level keeping me from ST2 Ultimate at the moment (and then I'll go back to ST1). Big props to Welcome to the Moscow Subway designer, absolutely genius solution (even if the red herring might be a bit much), and also Kick Before You Stick by the same person. (Note: KBYS's extra gem in top room was not added to hard mode gem quota, so top puzzle is still cheesable, but very interesting if done properly. The other three rooms are not cheesable.)

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[Last edited by Muzozavr at 10-11-2024 11:24 AM]

Muzozavr
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 11
Registered: 03-16-2006
IP: Logged

Double post, but for a worthy reason:

Thanks to Radiant suggesting it's about the bombs, I did something a little different there this time, both in the big blowout room and later on. The rock stack rolled correctly literally first try!

I played the last section like complete butt, but it doesn't matter, I solved it. ST2 Ultimate at last!

Thanks for the help, Radiant. I kept thinking about what the culprit could be, but I never suspected the bombs of all things. I was going crazy enough that I seriously considered recording a keypress macro from the last savepoint and programmatically replaying it with slightly different delays -- that would've taken insane effort and would've failed every time, because it's not about when, it's about bombs. You've saved me a lot of pain and heartache.

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

File: rockdiff.PNG (137.3 KB)
Downloaded 50 times.
License: Public Domain

Yes, it's the bombs. I've managed to reproduce the issue in Draconis. IF you check this level layout, and follow the green path, then the rocks will end up like in the second frame. If you drop the right bomb, then the left bomb, then follow the green path, the rocks will end up like in the third frame.



Specifically, it depends on object order. SubTerra has a number of optimizations to make sure the game doesn't slow down if a massive amount of objects exist on low-end systems, or what passed for low-end systems some twenty-five years ago.

So if we have four objects that are handled in this order: 1 2 3 4; and then we delete the second object (for instance because it's a bomb and it explodes) then the result will be: 1 x 3 2.
So now we've swapped execution order of the last two objects. And that very rarely matters because the game takes it into account; when a tile is emptied, the order in which nearby items can claim the tile is fixed. In this case, the rock rolling in from the left would normally get the tile, because the top rock is still (just barely) too far away; but if you mess with object order enough, the top rock does get it.

So technically not a bug. But, you know, don't try this at home

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= Radiant =

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[Last edited by Radiant at 10-13-2024 11:23 AM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

File: firstrock.PNG (14.8 KB)
Downloaded 45 times.
License: Public Domain

Here you go. Normally, the red rock would get the square, but because of object order shenanigans, the green rock goes first.



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= Radiant =

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[Last edited by Radiant at 10-13-2024 10:51 AM]