azb
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Hi everyone,

I know that there already exists an official tutorial for DROD RPG, but I feel that it only covers the very basics and doesn't explain the actual mechanics very well. For instance, there is no room to demonstrate diagonal movement explicitly unlike the normal DROD tutorials, and there is nothing to demonstrate tokens, or trapdoors resetting upon room re-entry, or many other things.

Therefore, I decided a more comprehensive fan-made tutorial would help with that, so I have completed the first two levels right now, dedicated to teaching basic movement and floor and wall types on the first level,

and objects like keys or swords on the second level.

My plan is that the final level will demonstrate everything combat and monster related, so greckle gates, attack gems, bombs and briar, etc. will all be reserved for that level and are intentionally not taught as of yet, because I want feedback on the first two levels.

07/26/2023 Update:

I decided to introduce fighting monsters in the first level instead, as well as greckle gates. I also introduced the idea of different kinds of monsters in the second level.

However, I will reserve special monsters, like goblins and aumtliches, as well as monster related items like speed potions and briar until the final level still (we don't want to overwhelm absolute beginners with too much information).

07/26/2023 Update 2:

I fixed a tedious/repetitve room in the second level, as well as added a new room to demonstrate a mechanic I hadn't taught yet.

07/27/2023 Update:

I added the last level, explaining more complicated combat related things like how brairs grow, or how a mimic moves/works.

08/17/2023 Update:

I cut down the first level to only a couple of rooms, and re-did the rest of the hold from the ground up/scratch as it was clear that many thought the original presentation was not a good RPG tutorial.

10/28/2023 Update:

I fixed level 3 to help cement the idea of needing to turn with a sword better.

12/21/2023 Update:

I fixed level 4 to let players know if they made bad decisions ealier in the hold and can't progress intentionally because of that,

and also added levels 16 thru 24, which introduce all the accessories except for wall walking and VIP cards, which will be reserved for levels 25 and 26 respectively.

03/23/2024 Update:

I added levels 25 thru 31, so I finished all levels of the hold.

I will still revise them as appropriate, if someone finds something too easy, too hard, or not appropriate/presented well for a tutorial.

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[Last edited by azb at 03-23-2024 10:14 AM : Added levels 25 thru 31]

azb
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Hi everyone who wants to play,

I think I will teach in this specific order for the combat level/last level:

* Introduce monsters in general first and foremost, with something basic like a roach.

* Introduce attack gems and defense gems afterward.

* Show more types of swords after.

* Introduce shields, and show all the different types, after that.

* Demonstrate combat related accessories, like invisibility potions and speed potions, after that.

* Introduce greckle gates after that, including their sister counterpart.

* Introduce the double your GR earnings/Lucky Greckle and the VIP card after that, because greckle related concepts were just taught.

* Intrdouce level multipliers after that, for fighting monsters you cannot with just a few simple +1 ATK and +1 DEF gems and the best swords and shields you can get (like Slayers for instance).

* Introduce all three kinds of tarstuff after that.

* Introduce black doors and their sister counterpart after that.

* Introduce tarstuff switch tokens after that (all types).

* Introduce vision tokens after that, and involve a puzzle of things under tar.

* Introduce hot tiles after that.

* Introduce bombs and fuses after that.

* Introduce briars and their roots after that, including their interaction with bombs (obviously I will show all of the bomb's interactions, and not just with brairs, so for example how they kill monsters in one hit and destroy crumbly walls as well).

* Introduce evil eyes and similar monsters after that.

* Introduce sworded enemies after that, and demonstrate that they will not be slower than normal when attacked from behind, unlike evil eyes.

* Introduce goblins after that.

* Introduce monsters that attack nearby no matter what, like water skippers after that.

* Introduce aumtliches and their beams after that.

* Introduce serpents after that.

* Introduce tarstuff mothers after that.

* Introduce Slayers after that, and how they will always attack first no matter what.

* Introduce brains after that, and how they double the ATK of every other monster each brain no matter what the monster actually is.

* Introduce goblin biters after that.

* Introduce how Really Big Swords block beams after that.

* Introduce wyrm smiters after that.

* Introduce briar cutters after that.

* Introduce health potions of all three types after that.

I believe that should cover everything combat related, unless I am missing something?

azb
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It also turns out I was wrong about trapdoors reseting upon room re-entry, I think just because I played the normal DRODs for too long/too much. I corrected that error, as well as in the tutorial on other things like platforms or mirrors, in the appropriate sections in the hold.

kieranmillar
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You seem to be unaware in general that in RPG all rooms persist state. Nothing resets when you leave the room. Many scrolls try to claim otherwise.

Also I'm sorry to say but this is incredibly boring. Can't you teach things while providing real gameplay? The best tutorial is an easy hold that naturally covers these concepts and only provides outright explanations when necessary.

azb
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I guess you have a point that it should provide more interesting gameplay, but it's hard to do if you reserve combat for only the last level.

Besides, I am pretty sure it wouldn't be 100% beginner friendly/easy to understand if it was "figure it out yourself by trial and error", cause not even the official tutorials do that (again referencing the one that comes with the game already), they spell it out for you which is what a good tutorial should do.

It wouldn't be 100% beginner friendly for someone if you told them "this thing is called an orb, but I won't explain it to you and hope you pick up how it works on your own", now would it?

I get your point that if you're an experienced player you might find it boring, but again it's probably not to your tastes if you already know the mechhanics of DROD RPG; this hold is definitely not for you.

azb
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I also thought I fixed the error, which I mentioned in the post directly before yours, I caught on to that myself after the fact.

kieranmillar
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azb wrote:
I guess you have a point that it should provide more interesting gameplay, but it's hard to do if you reserve combat for only the last level.

Then don't do that. The very first thing the player does in Tendry's Tale is fight a Roach. Just start with the most important concepts for RPG first instead of this strange and unnecessary categorisation you're doing.

azb wrote: It wouldn't be 100% beginner friendly for someone if you told them "this thing is called an orb, but I won't explain it to you and hope you pick up how it works on your own", now would it?

King Dugan's Dungeon managed this just fine over 20 years ago. Orbs are literally the first element you come across, no explanation provided. Sometimes explanations are necessary, for example Tendry's Tale has an explanation scroll next to every accessory, and stuff like doorwalking has to be explained, but not always needed for absolutely everything.

azb wrote: I get your point that if you're an experienced player you might find it boring, but again it's probably not to your tastes if you already know the mechhanics of DROD RPG; this hold is definitely not for you.

I wouldn't recommend this to beginners either because its so tedious. The official tutorial only gets away with what it does because it lasts a few minutes.

azb wrote:
I also thought I fixed the error, which I mentioned in the post directly before yours, I caught on to that myself after the fact.

I know you caught trapdoors not resetting, but I'm telling you there are other scrolls about other elements that make the same error, because in RPG all rooms persist the state you left them in, nothing resets.

azb
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I know for a fact words like "tedious" are subjective, and I strongly believe that your expertise with playing DROD RPG the normal way for a very long time has strongly biased your view of what would be 100% beginner friendly - I am aiming for as if no one had played DROD ever, RPG or otherwise.

However, I can admit you make some good points, like very basic combat mechanics being introduced at the beginning of the official tutorial, so I suppose I can re-adjust the tutorial to accomodate that.

However, I still believe it would be frustrating for someone with no DROD experience to have to just figure out by trial and error how you can move or hit an orb, cause usually a good tutorial will walk you through everything instead of just forcing you to assume how something works because it worked that way one time (if you understand that's my point more clearly now - it isn't always logical to assume that something works exactly the same way just cause it worked the way one time with trial and error, cause for example different orbs will affect different doors in different ways.)

I also know for a fact I got rid of the scrolls talking about things resetting in my most recent version, although I did explain in some scrolls that "it makes sense that this doesn't reset because it would break puzzles involving these elements", but that kind of scroll is unnecessary?

hyperme
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Having played the newest version, there are two problems with how this is designed:

Firstly, arranging the hold as a bunch of single room explanations of elements means there's no time for the player to asorb the knowledge, and no need for them to understand it. There's a reason why most official DROD holds have a lot of levels themed around specific elements - it means that different interactions can be spread out, and the player can learn by doing.

More importantly, this level set seems to lack a fundemental understanding of what DROD RPG is: a resource management puzzle. Every element that's not directly connected to that (i.e. gems, potions, keys, doors and monsters) must be considered in terms of how it interacts with the primary gameplay. For example, introducing oremites in a room with no monsters is pointless, because the purpose of oremites in DROD RPG is to lower your ATK and DEF, making combat more costly.

While some structural elements such as orbs and doors can exist outside of this understanding, they also have a purpose within it. You need to introduce combat first (or second after the controls I suppose) since that's the main thing that happens in DROD RPG. It also means that when you introduce additional elements, the player is more likely to understand how they will impact their management of resources.

Also 6S6W in the second level is a big waste of time so I didn't play past it the second time.

____________________________
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Qzvlkx?

azb
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I thought because DROD RPG has less overall mechanics than DROD, it wouldn't be necessary to have many rooms demonstrating the mechanics, and only one each (for example, you only need one room to teach you how to door walk and not five).

In the latest version, I thought I introduced combat first because I introduced roaches and greckle gates in the beginning of the first level, although I will be mindful of how other elements can be used for combat.

Note that like orbs however, the other stuff like broken walls and platforms I honestly can't seem to figure out how it affects combat in any kind of way, even though I can see how oremites do after you pointed it out.

Also the room you mentioned as a waste of time, I can definitely see why, cause it's more repetitive than necessary to demonstrate the mechanic, so I just cut it down to the three trapdoors in the middle.

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[Last edited by azb at 07-26-2023 09:36 PM]

Nuntar
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Object Orientation 2S2W gives the player two free skeleton keys, which are never used. This allows you to skip the intended lessons in some rooms, such as 3S3W or 4S4W. Worse, it means that when you arrive at 6S4W, the player has the option of killing the roaches for money, or opening the greckle gate with a skeleton key, or going all the way back for the wooden sword. Normally, having choices is good in RPG, but in a fully on-rails tutorial like this, the player is left to guess which method the author intended and to worry that making the wrong choice will leave them stuck. I would just take out the two keys.

There are no score checkpoints, so this could not be promoted in its current state.

I agree with what the others have said -- Tendry's Tale already does a good enough job of explaining new mechanics as they come up, which is much better for new players than trying to learn everything at once, and I would not recommend this hold to actual beginners -- but enough has been said on that already.

____________________________
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azb
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Okay, I fixed the lack of autosaves and score checkpoints, as well as the extra skeleton keys.

The skeleton keys were intentional at the time, but I figured a better solution to make it so that you can go back after is to just have a pressure plate that always opens the doors that you can't avoid, so that's what I did in my most recent version (and removed the keys obviously).

I get now that your guys' point is that it might be overwhelming them with too much information to try to walk them through all the objects at once in rapid succession; however, I still believe that it would be unnecessary to have more than 1 room demonstrating something simple like that flippers let you walk on water normally or door walking.

Do you guys think that maybe I should just add more rooms for each item (although maybe reserve concepts like door walking or diagonal movement for one room only), and try to make it more like a normal RPG hold rather than linear tutorial with one new concept each room?

If yes, then maybe:

Level 1: Introduce basic fighting and walking, but no swords or sword related objects yet.

Level 2: Introduce doors in general and pressure plates, as well as health potions.

Level 3: Introduce keys, as well as swords and objects that you need a sword to interact with, like crumbly walls, trapdoors or orbs.

Level 4: Introduce bridges.

Level 5: Introduce oremites.

Level 6: Introduce tunnels.

Level 7: Introduce force arrows and orthosquares.

Level 8: Introduce shields.

Level 9: Introduce attack and defense gems.

Level 10: Introduce bombs and fuses.

Level 11: Introduce mirrors.

Level 12: Introduce evil eyes and mad eyes.

Level 13: Introduce brains.

Level 14: Introduce goblins, as well as other swords and shields like goblin biters.

Level 15: Introduce greckle gates.

Level 16: Introduce lucky greckles.

Level 17: Introduce grappling hooks.

Level 18: Introduce flippers.

Level 19: Introduce invisibility potions.

Level 20: Introduce speed potions.

Level 21: Introduce hand bombs.

Level 22: Introduce pickaxes.

Level 23: Introduce warp tokens.

Level 24: Introduce portable orbs.

Level 25: Introduce wall walking tokens.

Level 26: Introduce VIP cards.

Level 27: Introduce monsters that attack when adjacent like water skippers.

Level 28: Introduce sworded monsters.

Level 29: Introduce wyrms and wyrm smiters.

Level 30: Introduce mimics.

Level 31: Introduce Slayers.

Does this all sound like good ideas, or does some of it either need expanding, like keys having their own level, or condensing like I can put sworded monsters and mimics in the same level?

So basically, I would probably re-do it from the ground up but keep most of the original level 1 as is.

azb
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Okay, I decided

A) no keys or pressure plates on level 3

B) introduce greckle gates early as a way to enforce decision making, so starting at level 2 rather than all the way at 15

I have the first four levels done of re-doing it from the ground up, but again level 1 is just the first couple of rooms of the original level 1 to teach you the basics of fighting and movement; the decisions don't start until level 2.

azb
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Note however, I made only level 2 about decision making, and levels 3 and 4 are still very straightforward because I wanted the focus to be on teaching the elements in a manner friendly to absolute beginners to DROD of any kind rather than making it a straight up normal RPG hold.

Level 5 I believe will emphasize decision making more, however, as that is when I introdouce keys.

Doom
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I don't have anything new to add, just wanted an excuse to post funny videos. Somehow this project feels both too simple and too overwhelming.

azb wrote:
Do you guys think that maybe I should just add more rooms for each item (although maybe reserve concepts like door walking or diagonal movement for one room only), and try to make it more like a normal RPG hold rather than linear tutorial with one new concept each room?

Yes!

azb
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Yeah, now I get it based on what you guys were telling me that for absolute beginners (my intended audience, mind you experts!) it was probably too much information at once, so I decided that my revamp will probably make it more palatable.

Note as well, however, because I introduce elements and stuff like that gradually, because I don't introduce the shield until level 9, I don't actually use any monsters besides simple roaches and wraithwings up to that point.

Again, however, because this is meant for absolute beginners I don't think I should overwhelm them with too much decision making regarding "take this ATK gef or health and DEF gem" right away; that would be later levels after you learn the very basics.

My plan monster wise is for level 9 and 10 to introduce roach queens and their egg spawning mechanic, then level 10 introduce attack and defense gems, then item multipliers bigger than x1 level 11 onward, where I can then introduce a wider range of monsters like spiders, antlions etc.

azb
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Hi everyone,

I am thinking that for later levels once I start to introduce the harder monsters and make the hold more like a traditional RPG hold, I should also introduce inventories to store the multiple swords, shields and accessories you will encounter,

as well as introduce altars where you trade REP for stat boosts. I know those concepts do not come with the engine by default by any means, but because they were in the official RPG hold I feel they should be demonstrated as well.

Does that sound reasonable/fair to all of you?

I also knew I would have to change my oremites until after I introduce the short sword, so they are not going to be in level 5 but instead something like 12 or 13.

The aumtlich and hot tiles I didn't mention, but probably it would be smart to save it for the advanced levels near the end where you fight the hardest monsters, exactly like how it works in the original RPG hold.

azb
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I am also thinking of posting levels 5 thru 15 next, instead of just 5 thru 8, cause of how short each level in question is.

Does that also sound reasonable to you guys, or is it too much stuff to test at once even if the levels are only about three rooms each on average?

Also on top of the levels being very short, none of them have stairs to go back to previous levels, except for 15 cause that's when I start teaching the concept - all the other levels are just small one-level puzzles and I don't teach going back to levels to finish parts when you're stronger until later in the hold.

azb
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Does anyone have any comments on the levels now that they are revised? Too linear still and taught too fast to actually learn anything useful, or do you think it's more reasonable now?

Gordius
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I'm still not sure this is the right way to go about what you're trying to do, but it's definitely better than the original version. I would also say that if you're going to dismiss the opinions that are presented because they're coming from "experts" who aren't your target audience, then it shouldn't be a surprise when they stop offering opinions on the updates you've made. I'd suggest finding some beginners to test what you have, but I'm not sure how/where you'd find them.

That all said, if you're going forward with this, I'd note that the room where you obtain the sword probably needs a note explaining how to turn. You could just put it in there as is (sort of out of order, since they'd have to step on it before they get the sword) or you could shift the sword or crumbly wall so they're oriented in the same direction (so if you move the wall, it would need to be above you, since that's the way you step on the sword) and then put the note behind that to explain how to break a second crumbly wall that isn't accessible without turning. And, more broadly, if you're teaching how crumbly walls work, there's value to including more than just one.

azb
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That is good and constructive feedback; the only reason I was dismissing the opinions of the more seasoned RPGers is because they found it boring overall without telling me anything more constructive, which would be obvious if you already know the mechanics of RPG in and out; it sort of ruins/biases the experience for you.

Does that sound reasonable or not really?

azb
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I fixed the issues you mentioned, like needing more than 1 crumbly wall to drive the point home, or mentioning and demonstrating how to turn.

Gordius
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azb wrote: Does that sound reasonable or not really?

So, it sounds reasonable, but I think what we've been trying to tell you (certainly what I'd say) is that when we were beginners, we learned all of this from the existing tutorial and Tendry's Tale, because that's pretty much all there was, and that was a more enjoyable (and as a result, more effective) approach than what you're trying to do.

azb
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Okay, that makes sense given how the original version dragged on long rooms for no reason, but here in this version I was intentional about introducing decision making and engaging rooms, and I can promise there will be a lot more active decision making levels from 5 on, cause then keys will be introduced, as well as attack and defense gems later on.

azb
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Does anyone have any feedback for all of my revised levels? IE: do you guys think the decisions in level 2 are too tedious, or are there problems I don't understand in any of the levels?

Midootje
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Well, it's entirely possible to get stuck in level 4 if you don't make the decision to keep 1 extra spare greckle in lvl 2, which would be sub-optimal based on that level alone. It might be useful to add a scroll next to the last greckle door in level 4 explaining that the player might want to replay level 2 differently in order to be able to open the second greckle door.
Edit: I say this only because experienced players will know this instinctively, but this being a tutorial hold, new players might be confounded by this particular door.

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

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[Last edited by Midootje at 12-19-2023 01:14 PM]

azb
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That sounds like a great idea! I also added levels 16 thru 24, and made sure to test that the hold still plays out smoothly even with the sheer amount of levels added, and that each and every level has a score checkpoint and autosave.

Midootje
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Alright, those new levels look fine. Actually, I think you could put most or all of the one-use accessories in the same level, whereas 'permanent' accessories like the flippers and grappling hook deserve an entire level for themselves.

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

azb
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I keep them as seperate levels intentionally, just so that the demonstrations aren't all klugged up in one small passageway in rapid succession, like how it was in the old/original versions of the hold, if you remember that was a big thing people did not like about it, because it wasn't presentable that way - too much information all at once?

azb
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I will work on the rest of the levels, and there will be tons of accesory swapping to finish off the hardest and last levels of the hold.