azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
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File: Expedition of Valor Ver III.drh (5.6 KB)
Downloaded 73 times.
License: Public Domain

Hello everyone,

I decided to start another DROD RPG hold, but rather than making it mindless killing in the name of story I decided to have it be more emphasized on decision making and going back from later levels.

Currently, I have only the first level finished, and it should be fairly linear with only a little planning required, as an easy introductory level.

The only thing is that for the Power Lich, I made it gain 24 Health "Each Attack", but at the same player ATK level, depending on the combat speed, it will gain different levels of health in total because it hits the player a different amount of times with different speeds, which I believe shouldn't happen.

Does anybody know why an NPC monster with "Each attack" will sometimes not attack if the combat is fast enough; is it perhaps just an oversight?

Changelog:



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[Last edited by azb at 10-16-2020 02:29 AM : 10/15/2020 Update]

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 110
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Hmm, the 'gains 24 HP every attack' command doesn't seem to work (FYI, I use instant battle, that might be the thing), because when I start the level, I can just attack him for 120 HP cost.

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azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Yeah, same for me. Weirdly, if you use the combat speeds on the lower end of the bar, he will kill you instead because it responds more often the slower the combat speed, which probably warrants a bug report.

Do you know how I can get around this issue?

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[Last edited by azb at 08-22-2020 11:58 AM : Clarification of problem]

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2842
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

I have tried this with Each Attack and Each Defend and different variables, and can come to the following conclusion:

During instant combat resolution, the game ignores changes to the _MyHP variable. Other variables, including other _My variables seem to work as intended, but it ignores any changes to _MyHP. This means if you try to change the monster's HP, you'll get different outcomes based on how many non-instant rounds you go through before pressing SPACE enough times to resolve combat instantly.

My advice: Just increase the monster's DEF by 24. Fundamentally the same intent, and also very clear to the player.

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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 08-22-2020 01:01 PM]

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2842
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

Here's a script for the Power Lich you could use instead. Copy it to your clipboard then Ctrl + Shift + B in-game to paste it in.

  Appear 
  Behavior 13
  Set var "_MyHP" = 50
  Set var "_MyATK" = 24
  Set var "_MyDEF" = 24
  Set var "_MyGold" = 10
  Set var "_MyREP" = 10
  Set var "_MyColor" = 770077
Label Loop
  Wait 0
  Set var "TempX" = _MyX+(_MyO%3)-1
  Set var "TempY" = _MyY+(_MyO/3)-1
  If ... 
        Wait until var "TempX" < 0
     Go to Loop
  If End 
  If ... 
        Wait until var "TempX" > 15
     Go to Loop
  If End 
  If ... 
        Wait until var "TempY" < 0
     Go to Loop
  If End 
  If ... 
        Wait until var "TempY" > 15
     Go to Loop
  If End 
  Set var "_MyScriptX" = TempX
  Set var "_MyScriptY" = TempY
  If ... 
        Wait for entity Player 0,0,0,0
     Game effect Center,Jitter,0,0,Off
     Set var "_MyScriptX" = -9999
     Set var "_MyScriptY" = -9999
     Set var "_MyHP" + 24
     Set var "_HP" - 24
     Speech "My power grows stronger!",Normal,Self,0,.
  If End 
  Set var "_MyScriptX" = -9999
  Set var "_MyScriptY" = -9999
  Go to Loop

This will not gain HP during a fight, but will gain HP when the player steps in front.

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Thank you so much for the fix! I will definitely be posting it in. My original plan was to have the player not be able to kill the lich until they gained the ATK in all the rooms below including the sword, but your script works as well.

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[Last edited by azb at 08-22-2020 03:51 PM : Original ending didn't make sense]

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 110
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Thanks kieran, because I would not have had even the first clue on how to fix the issue. I'm just a tester, not a solver :p

____________________________
Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Gordius
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 12-16-2008
IP: Logged

The desired effect seems to work on the Power Lich now. I didn't fight him to finish the level (and I'm not sure why I would). If this is the introductory level and the goal is just to make sure players understand the mechanic, I think that's fine. I suppose I can come back for $ and REP eventually, but it's hardly worth the bother.

This may be a result of the new script for the Lich, but the second part of your scroll doesn't really make sense. The advice "wait until you have over 24 ATK before you fight him" is mooted by the fact that he has 24 DEF. I obviously have to wait until I have over 24 ATK to fight him.

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Yeah, that was a big oversight. I will change the number to 48 because by 49, you will be able to kill the Lich and take the same amount of damage as you would stepping in front of him, giving you 10 GR and preventing him from being a problem in the future.

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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4756
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

kieranmillar wrote: My advice: Just increase the monster's DEF by 24. Fundamentally the same intent, and also very clear to the player.

That was my first thought too, but it's not at all the same.

I fought the boss with 27 ATK, and he has 50 HP. With the boss gaining 24 HP per hit, his HP goes down to 23, up to 47, down to 20, up to 44... until it reaches 26, and then the next hit kills him. In total, that's eight hits to get down to 26, one more to kill.

With the boss having a flat 24 DEF, the entire 50 HP must be whittled away 3 HP at a time, and this takes 17 hits.

In short, the change makes the boss twice as hard, and this will be a big problem in such a short hold with very few stats available.

If you assume the player will have 27 ATK, then a possible fix is to give the boss 24 DEF and 25 HP. However, this won't produce exactly the same results if the player has other amounts of ATK.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 08-23-2020 12:44 AM]

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

It's okay with kiermiller's suggestion - although my initial plan was to be able to kill him once you got all the ATK in the first level, I feel that making him impossible to kill until you come back actually adds more challenge to it, because he will be tougher from... I believe from testing it myself the minimum amount of hits you can take to kill the Evil Ogrelord is 3, meaning the Lich will have 122 (50 + 72) health total.

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[Last edited by azb at 08-23-2020 01:29 PM : Repetitive "because"]

Rabscuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2494
Registered: 09-10-2004
IP: Logged

*Expedition

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Thank you for the typo correction. I wish DROD had a built in spell checker the way that Google Chrome does, but I guess with all the other features on it would bloat the game too much?

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[Last edited by azb at 08-23-2020 02:57 PM : Google Chrome not Google]

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Okay, I got the second level released now as well. It's similar to the latter half of the first level in Tendry's Tale, but still its own thing. I also edited the title according to Rabscuttle's correction, and made the boss in the first level weaker so the player will have more health to start level 2 with.

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Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2340
Registered: 06-14-2005
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What's with CD:1E? There's no reason to kill the roaches except for the greckles.

Final stats:


Looking good so far!

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

I wanted to make that the point of the room - that you needed to kill the roaches to have sufficient greckles to get the key. Did you find some other way to get enough?

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Someone Else
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2340
Registered: 06-14-2005
IP: Logged

Well, you can come into the level with a key by not buying the potion on the first level. And then once you can kill the kobolds for free, you can easily get enough money.

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Okay, thank you for that. I tried to make the first level so that you could only survive on just enough greckles to get kill the first boss and get the potion later; do you know how you had extra money left over?

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[Last edited by azb at 09-01-2020 06:53 PM : Edit for original intention]

Lucky Luc
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1215
Registered: 08-19-2012
IP: Logged

Stats:

This is a weird hold. There's some interesting micro-optimization, but it seems to me there's only really one general path that's viable, so it becomes a game of "explore the level, figure out the path, restore, do it." Which, honestly, just doesn't feel very interesting to me. Maybe I'm just not your target audience, though.

Some specific comments:

Level 1 Entrance: Explaining the Power Lich behavior on the scroll is nice. Pointing out the ATK threshold seems a bit unnecessary. Especially since there's absolutely no way to reach that threshold on the first level. Also, what's up with the red guard in the intro text?

Level 1 1W: Hiding the key behind so many slimeballs makes it hard to imagine there's any world where not taking 48 damage to obtain the wooden shield first is the right choice. I mean, even if there were no slimeballs in this room, getting it first would probably be worth it, but this way, it's just a bit too obvious for my taste.

Level 1 1S: I'm not sure I get the point of the pressure plate, since pressing it is actually required.

Level 2 1E: Like Someone Else, I thought this room was pretty pointless. The max value you can get out of the key at that point is 2 ATK or 2 DEF, which can maybe save up to 18 health before reaching the short sword. There's no way this is worth taking 5 brained roach hits. And once you have the short sword, this room becomes trivial.

I think in general getting equipment doesn't cost enough in this hold to ever even consider another choice. 48 health to reduce every hit you take by 10? That's already paid off after fighting a single roach. Taking one evil eye hit to gain 10 ATK? No way I'm not taking that instantly. Fighting 3 evil eyes and 1 roach queen to gain another 20 ATK? You bet that's the first thing I do in the second level. I guess it's fine if you attempt to make a very easy hold, but right now, these decisions just feel completely trivial.

The power lich has an interesting concept, but at the same time I'm not sure it's used very well at the moment. There's no way fighting the one on the first floor is ever worth it (Maybe once you have very high ATK and need a bit of extra money you can come back to it), and the one on the second level goes down very easily after obtaining the short sword. As a thought, maybe you could literally increase its power (i.e. ATK) when stepping in front instead? That way, obtaining the shield early will be a lot more pricey and interesting a choice.

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Okay, I will do that. I initially made him gain HP, but I can make his HP constant and his ATK go up instead.


The Red Guard in the first entrance text was because I initially was going to make it about an imperial Red Guard doing the adventure, but switched to Tendry later. I fixed it now.

Level 1 1W: I intentionally made it so that the choice was obvious, and I did this for in most of the other rooms in this level and the next.

Level 1 1S: I wanted the pressure plate closes the door permanently, so the player will be mindful of what path they choose relative to the Roach Queen because she would take too much HP from them at this point.

I can see now that if you drop all the trapdoors after it closes, however, you can re open it. I changed it to a black gate now.

I changed the short sword to 2 ATK gems and 1 DEF gem, since I can tell doing it the way you did makes the Short Sword overpowered for the area.

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Lucky Luc
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1215
Registered: 08-19-2012
IP: Logged

Huh. After playing the new version and then replaying the old version, I realized that I was doing the hold injustice. I wasn't aware just how viable it was to skip the blue door in the second level altogether.

Stats:

After realizing this, the old version suddenly appears much more interesting to me than before. The new version is also fine, though. I think you could build interesting levels on top of either version, depending on how obvious you want to make it and how much you want to reward the player for finding this.

If you liked the old power lich, I don't want to discourage you from using it; especially with my newly gained insight, the second one is suddenly much more interesting. The new one is also cool, though. I think you could also think about increasing its ATK with each attack instead (if I read Kieran's post correctly, that works for some reason). It's just a suggestion though, don't feel obligated to implement it.

azb
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 491
Registered: 03-08-2014
IP: Logged

Thank you for the suggestion and insights.

I am thinking of keeping the hold and Power Lich as they are right now, because it would be harder to predict the amount of damage you would take in combat beforehand if he kept changing stats mid combat.

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