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azb
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File: TSS Elements Showcase v19.hold (16 KB)
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icon TSS Tutorial (+2)  
Here is a new hold out there for people who don't know how things such as Gentryii work. The basics are all explained here.

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[Last edited by azb at 06-26-2014 08:36 PM]
06-24-2014 at 09:24 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+4)  
This is indeed a quick hold containing the basics of 5.0 element behaviour. I don't know whether you intend to do any more work on it, but here are some pointers in case you want to improve this and submit it to Holds.

New Elements
* The trapdoor and roach-killing puzzles are unrelated to what the room is teaching. It would be nice to have a mini-puzzle where you have to lure a roach onto spikes, and one where you have to think about the properties of thin ice (or at the very least, have to move onto it!).
* Mention and show that thin ice comes in two varieties, on water or on shallow water.

New Elements: Objects
* Why is the title not just "New Objects"?
* 1N1W is not backtrackable.
* 1N1E is solvable without using the powder keg. Mention and show that kegs work with fuses.
* 1W: why the unnecessarily convoluted tunnel?
* I suggest covering the staff before other weapons, so you can show pushing and stunning before teaching the more complex behaviours of the pickaxe, spear and caber.
* None of the weapon token rooms do a good enough job of forcing the player to step on the token, only once, before solving any of the puzzles in the room.
* 1N1W: Yes, this covers the basics, but it leaves out essential details. Monsters are stunned for two turns (the current and next turns) if you push them successfully; for only one if you attempt an unsuccessful push move. The pickaxe pushes if you move in the same direction you are facing or one rotation away.
* 1N2W: The spear is the opposite of the pickaxe: it kills if you move in the same direction you are facing or one rotation away. Show how it interacts with tarstuff.
* 1N3W: what does "hitting something non-directly" mean? The caber will always push, unless the move is blocked. Show how the caber and staff interact with tarstuff mothers.
* 2N1W: spelling error "fortuantely". The room doesn't explain or illustrate that a pushed monster is stunned for one turn. The scroll about bombs comes before the second bomb, when the player has already learned this.
* 2N2W: ...and you don't drop trapdoors when you have the dagger.

New Elements: Monsters
* 1W: Puffs move every five turns, not thirty. The information in the third scroll isn't clearly written, and isn't needed to solve the room. The fourth and fifth scrolls are duplicates. The actual mechanic is that all stabbing moves (thus including all moves with the sword and dagger) don't affect fluff; all pushing moves do, and a fluff ball will break up if it no longer forms a stable blob after a push. You don't mention (though you do show) that puffs target monsters as well as Beethro.
* 1S: No, monsters can't move diagonally through gentryii chains. You can, however, stab across gentryii chains. The room should illustrate this.
* 1E: No, constructs do not pathmap like brained monsters. They use flexible beelining like aumtlich. The second scroll is confusing when you haven't even mentioned constructs regenerating. Mention and show interactions with shallow water, hot tiles and oremites.

Examination Room
* Again, if you want the player to do a section with a particular weapon, you need to force him/her to step on the weapon token exactly once.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 06-25-2014 01:19 AM]
06-25-2014 at 01:01 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
I fixed the issues and made major renovations according to your suggestions. Try the new version now!

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06-25-2014 at 04:38 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+2)  
Comments

Click here to view the secret text


Overall, it's not too bad, but there's some work left to be done.

06-26-2014 at 01:08 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+2)  
Another version is attached. Explained more, and I have accommodated to your comments also. However, there are a few ones I would like to address.

Quote: It would be important to mention how spikes work with rattlesnakes.

Reply: I already said that spikes strike like swords. You just need to know how swords work with rattlesnakes and spikes would be the same.

Quote: What happened to the scripted speech telling you what to learn in each area?

Reply: I decided on some variation, so it wouldn't be dull and repetitive.

Quote: Why do we need random scripting here?

Well, really, in that room, a scroll tells you that the pressure plate breaks walls, because you cannot break walls with a staff.

Quote: The explanation in 2W is incomplete.

Reply: Can you tell me more about Temporal Split Tokens? I believe I covered it all, but if there's more to know, please inform me so I can add it to the tutorial.

Quote: Monsters 1S: How do Gentryii move?

Reply: I had said that they move based on their chain length. In the newest version, I will explain that they move like roaches when their chain permits them. I didn't know that Gentryii could be killed, so I added a trapdoor and bridge.

Exam Room

Quote: What happened to the other 10 or so elements?

Reply: I wanted to keep things simple, so I included lesser elements.

Quote: The ending text seems belittling.

Reply: Sorry if it does, but I sincerely did not mean to intimidate the player or otherwise offend them.
Quote: What does "What you did before" mean?

Reply: Sorry, I had to create a different scroll, the description was too long. The full sentence is "what you did before tabbing (pressing tab)."

I'm sorry if I seem irritated with the comment feedback, but I can assure you I am not upset. In fact, I appreciate the feedback! I learn from it. Keep it going!


With all due respect,
azb

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[Last edited by azb at 06-26-2014 01:56 AM]
06-26-2014 at 01:42 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
A slight fix so that you are forced to keep the weapon until you clear the room in the Weapon Token Rooms.

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06-26-2014 at 01:50 AM
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bomber50
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
First of all, spikes and sword stabs are not identical. A lot of spikes cannot kill a long rattlesnake in one shot, while a lot of sword stabs can.

As for the scripted speech, this doesn't seem like something to worry about. Choose one or the other, it's not going to be "dull".

For the staff walls, my point was, why even have the *walls in the first place*? The player should know that regular sword stabs break breakable walls.

As for the temporal split tokens, you should have noticed the second half. "What you did before" has many possible meanings. Does that mean it will make the exact same movements on the same turns? (this isn't true). Does it mean it will always follow the exact same path (this also isn't true).

This hold, while it will certainly help you for TSS, it's not suddenly going to "prepare" you for it. You are still going to get stuck. There are important quirks here that aren't mentioned. One example, for instance, is that constructs can drop trapdoors.
06-26-2014 at 02:03 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Okay, I added the Rattlesnake-Spike interaction and Construct-Trapdoor quirk too, if there's any more unknown quirks, tell me!

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06-26-2014 at 02:12 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
I added yet another version to fix a factual error on rattlesnakes and spikes.

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06-26-2014 at 04:11 PM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
I added the quirk that Explosions melt ice.

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06-26-2014 at 08:13 PM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
I updated the monsters level to cover unchained Gentryii and Fluff interaction with water.

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06-26-2014 at 08:36 PM
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azb
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File: TSS Elements Showcase v9.hold (13.1 KB)
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
The site won't allow me to delete the above attachment, so I'll have to post the next update here. This version has more information on daggers.

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06-26-2014 at 11:40 PM
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Schik
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+2)  
It won't let you delete it because you've submitted it to HA. You should use the form at the top of this page to update your hold. (But really, you should finish it *before* submitting to HA).

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06-27-2014 at 12:01 AM
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azb
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File: TSS Elements Showcase v14.hold (15.8 KB)
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Okay, bump for the final release. The Exam is much bigger this time, and I corrected quite a few factual errors/added in the last new quirks.

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[Last edited by azb at 07-27-2014 04:42 PM]
07-27-2014 at 12:39 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
New Elements 1W: Add a checkpoint between the sections. It's a pity you don't need to set off the bomb to conquer the room -- perhaps delete the C-token and add a roach that can only be killed by the explosion? (You'd need to provide a way to get off the arrow, of course.)

1N: Checkpoint by the orb.

1E: The plural is "fegundos". Remove the words "beneath it" (the tarstuff is not beneath the firetraps!)

New Objects 1N1E: Why is there scripting to remove the wall at (10,25)? It's not nice to give the player a puzzle with hidden information, and anyway it's solvable without using that. You can step on the disarm token twice to get your sword back and kill the brains.

2E: Why not make a puzzle involving all the ways seeding beacons can be activated?

2W: I see the sentence is meant to continue from one scroll to the next. Then the first should end "what you did before you..." with the ellipsis showing it's incomplete, and the second should not have an initial capital.

There is a lot to take in here, and I would break it down into (1) the basics, (2) pushing a temporal projection, (3) what happens when a temporal projection tries to make a blocked move, with a separate puzzle room for each.

1N1W: You get a one-turn stun when an attempted push move is blocked.

1N2W: You could show the tarstuff interaction more dramatically by using a blob that would be uncuttable with a sword (though you will have to provide a way to get back!)

1N3W: Hmmm... you didn't mention that tar won't grow onto disabled force arrows back in the disabled force arrows section ;)

2N1W: spelling: "Fortunately". Staff pushes don't have a fixed stun duration -- they are the same as with other pushing weapons, two turns if the monster can move, just one if it's blocked.

The scroll about staffs not exploding bombs comes after the player has been forced to regain their sword to take out the tar mothers. You should add a force arrow so that it would be safe to explode the bomb, if you could.

New Monsters 1W: Remove the scroll at (25,12). (I see you've corrected the misleading information on the other scroll, so you don't need this one.)

Puffs form ice when they kill another monster or are pushed into another puff on water. It's possible to do that in this room, but tricky, so a checkpoint is necessary. Also, the scroll says the wubbas will go away when ice is formed, but they are scripted to disappear when ice is melted.

1E: This really needs to be two rooms -- the constructs from the first part will reanimate while solving the second, and it's way too fiddly to get all of them down at once.

1S: spelling: "breakable". Nice simple puzzle for the C-token :thumbsup

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07-27-2014 at 02:36 PM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
Okay, I'm on it.

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07-27-2014 at 02:53 PM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Okay, new version up for more in-depth interactions.

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07-27-2014 at 03:37 PM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
I corrected some backtracking problems and other problems introduced with version 12.

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07-27-2014 at 04:34 PM
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azb
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I also corrected the exam being impossible.

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07-27-2014 at 04:42 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+2)  
More comments on the updated version (fairly long):

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Overall, it's not bad, but you still have a lot of work ahead of you.

[Last edited by bomber50 at 07-28-2014 12:03 AM]
07-28-2014 at 12:01 AM
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azb
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File: TSS Elements Showcase v15.hold (16 KB)
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Okay, here's version 15 for more accommodations. However, not all comments have been accommodated to, and here's the replies to the comments.

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Added powder kegs in caber area

Added firetraps in seeding beacons area

Added floor spikes and fire traps in construct area

Corrected the fact in fluff to "you can push puffs into any solid object."

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07-30-2014 at 10:42 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Click here to view the secret text

07-31-2014 at 12:13 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
Thank you, I will make the revisions ready.

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07-31-2014 at 01:10 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (0)  
About Puffs:

The scenario you gave was already mentioned back in "pickaxes" with the pushing rules.

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07-31-2014 at 01:19 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Alright, new version added because you clarified your comments and made me know what to fix. Fixed accordingly.

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07-31-2014 at 01:21 AM
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azb
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icon Re: TSS Tutorial (+1)  
Gah, I accidentally replaced spear with sword in the Puffs room, making it impossible. Fixed now.

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08-01-2014 at 05:45 PM
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