Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

I just discovered this game a month or two ago, and liked it immediately. I've made several levels already, some of which may be good, but I have several questions about both Subterra and Subterra 2. The first and last are the most important, really.

In Subterra 1...

How do you use dynamite in a two-player game? Or is it simply not possible?

Could I have a hint about how to find the first secret level?

Is it possible to get to that portal in the first screen of Tutorial 1? (I think it's tutorial one – the one which introduces the switches and barriers.)

Is it truly impossible to create levels with rooms, like the tutorials?

Why does the special palette have seven empty spaces? Will they ever be filled?

In Subterra 2...

Are there secret levels in Subterra 2 as well?

In both...

Are there any other undocumented features in the editor other than Ctrl-F5? It seems to me there should be some way of setting the background, for instance, yet I can't find it.

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

Ok,
#1: I can't remember, but it does say in the help.
#2: sorry, cant remember, might be in the 3-5 last level on the top row.
#3: Yes, in fact you need to to complete it on hard mode.
#4: as far as I know, yes, it is impossible.
#5: probably becuase it would be more trouble than it would be worth to fill them with something other than empty space.
#6: No.
#7: could be, but I don't know.

HTH.

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

wonkyth wrote:
#3: Yes, in fact you need to to complete it on hard mode.

Okay, I tried to get to it using the dynamite, but that didn't work... I'm guessing that dynamite is somehow the key to getting to the portal?

As for dynamite with two players, I don't recall it being mentioned in the help. But I will check again next time I play (maybe tomorrow morning?).

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

It might be mentioned under the F1 help but not the F2 help.

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Definitely not the F2 help – I read that from start to finish at one point.

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:
How do you use dynamite in a two-player game? Or is it simply not possible?

I'm sure it's possible, but I'm not sure how. Try all keys.

Could I have a hint about how to find the first secret level?

Is it possible to get to that portal in the first screen of Tutorial 1? (I think it's tutorial one – the one which introduces the switches and barriers.)

Notice that you pick up a dynamite between screens 3 and 4. Use it wisely. Blow up the only wall that could possibly be hiding something.

Is it truly impossible to create levels with rooms, like the tutorials?

I believe Radiant hard-coded these into the game, so yes.

Why does the special palette have seven empty spaces? Will they ever be filled?

Probably he didn't have enough tiles.

Are there secret levels in Subterra 2 as well?

Not sure. I haven't found any.

Are there any other undocumented features in the editor other than Ctrl-F5? It seems to me there should be some way of setting the background, for instance, yet I can't find it.

I believe the background is randomly chosen from a selection each time a level is played.

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

The Stew Boy wrote:
I believe the background is randomly chosen from a selection each time a level is played.

Then how do you make an invisible maze?


Does anyone know exactly how speaking affects Warriors in Subterra 2? It seems kind of random to me.

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[Last edited by Celtic Minstrel at 09-06-2008 05:00 PM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
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Celtic Minstrel wrote:
Then how do you make an invisible maze?

You don't

Does anyone know exactly how speaking affects Warriors in Subterra 2? It seems kind of random to me.

Says so in the documentation. If they're between two walls, it causes them to swap to the other wall.

Nothing in ST is random; not even the things that seem random.

____________________________
= Radiant =

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

But I've seen at least two invisible maze levels...

Radiant wrote:

Does anyone know exactly how speaking affects Warriors in Subterra 2? It seems kind of random to me.

Says so in the documentation. If they're between two walls, it causes them to swap to the other wall.

Huh. I must have missed that. I didn't see it anywhere in the Master Object List. It mentioned a few times that voice commands affect warriors, but I didn't see it saying how anywhere.

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[Last edited by Celtic Minstrel at 09-07-2008 10:19 PM]

wonkyth
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 06-18-2007
IP: Logged

Also, if the warrior isn't touching any walls, then it also flips.

____________________________
"Satire denounces the world;
Wit penetrates it;
Humour accepts it;
But Nonsense Transforms it"
- Cedric Whitman
w.r.t. Aristophanes

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Yeah, you can sort of get it to follow you if you want...

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
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For the dynamite, I think Enter sets it off for player 1 and Ctrl sets it off for player 2.

And just for the record, I think the puzzles in ST1 are WAY harder (and generally well-designed) that ST2.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

ST1 has (obviously) been around a lot longer, and therefore people have had much more time to play around with the editor, so they can create better levels.

ST2 is still relatively new, and has a different set of objects, so it takes some getting used to. It also has more complexity.

One of these days, I wouldn't be surprised if someone designs a full set of levels for ST2. It won't be me, however; I'm not used to most of the mechanics yet, despite playing around for over a year.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Danjen02 wrote:
For the dynamite, I think Enter sets it off for player 1 and Ctrl sets it off for player 2.

And just for the record, I think the puzzles in ST1 are WAY harder (and generally well-designed) that ST2.

Actually, that question was answered somewhere. It's Ctrl and Backspace for dynamite, and Shift and Enter for special moves.

The Mystic wrote:
ST2 is still relatively new, and has a different set of objects, so it takes some getting used to. It also has more complexity.

Well, about 10 or 20 of the objects are the same...

---

[Last edited by Celtic Minstrel at 09-09-2008 09:38 PM]

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:

The Mystic wrote:
ST2 is still relatively new, and has a different set of objects, so it takes some getting used to. It also has more complexity.

Well, about 10 or 20 of the objects are the same...

True, there's at least some similarity between ST1 & ST2. I never said the object sets were completely different...

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

I think ST2 is more difficult, in that it has a number of complex objects that people tend not to grasp at first sight, e.g. wires. That is partially intentional, but I may have overdone it a bit

____________________________
= Radiant =

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Radiant wrote:
I think ST2 is more difficult, in that it has a number of complex objects that people tend not to grasp at first sight, e.g. wires. That is partially intentional, but I may have overdone it a bit

The wires are more complicated, yes, but they also make it a little more versatile.

And I like that creature that you can control by stepping on invisible trigger points (the one that take up five rows of the secret tile palette). I do wish it were documented, though.

The dogs and the shops also add complexity, in terms of keystrokes.



I think I like them about equally, though.

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:
But I've seen at least two invisible maze levels...

Well, the only way you can get them is by a glitch in the level editor, which creates invisible, solid tiles that you can copy+paste IIRC.
And levels with these aren't supposed to be valid for the Contest sets (even though Radiant put mine in for some reason...)

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 142
Registered: 02-05-2003
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The Stew Boy wrote:
And levels with these aren't supposed to be valid for the Contest sets (even though Radiant put mine in for some reason...)

That's because surprising me is a good way of getting noticed (and/or winning) in the level design contest

____________________________
= Radiant =

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

@Radiant: I think it was mentioned in one of the other threads, but I remember that you said the level Euler in ST1 had some logic to beating it on hard mode. I have yet to figure out said logic, though I have beat it on hard.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Danjen02 wrote:
I have yet to figure out said logic.

Look at each separate passage between rooms. Observe how they differ (other than by the blue arrows.)
Also Radiant, on the secret level in the last row, a hint box mentions a code that allows you to view the author's demo for it, but I can't find any other hints that state what it actually is. Is there some secret route there?
Oh, also I'm now on rank IV, which is good I guess. I'm trying to find every single secret level . I've found all but one (third last row), and despite the fact that I haven't completed many of the levels in that row, I have a sneaking suspicion that that one is located in
as all the entrances seem to be in levels with lots of grey walls, although there are a couple other such levels in that row that I haven't completed yet.

The Mystic
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 18
Registered: 09-20-2006
IP: Logged

Radiant wrote:
I think ST2 is more difficult, in that it has a number of complex objects that people tend not to grasp at first sight, e.g. wires.

The wires are a cool addition. I'm currently working on an automatic wire-controlled level, teaching myself the mechanics as I go.

The Stew Boy wrote:
I'm trying to find every single secret level . I've found all but one (third last row), and despite the fact that I haven't completed many of the levels in that row, I have a sneaking suspicion that that one is located in

Click here to view the secret text

×inferno

as all the entrances seem to be in levels with lots of grey walls, although there are a couple other such levels in that row that I haven't completed yet.

I just replayed my solution (I've already mastered the level). Truth be told, I never thought to look here for a secret level. It's there, but I'm not saying where (that would be telling); and I haven't checked the secret level yet, so I can't tell you what's there.

____________________________
Either I'm crazy, or everybody else is nuts. And I know I'm not crazy because the little man who lives on my shoulder told me so.
If people don't think there's something wrong with you, there's something wrong with you.
Oh well. Another day, another dementia.

---

[Last edited by The Mystic at 09-11-2008 04:17 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

If I recall, the secret level gives you the code that lets you view the author's solution to a puzzle. Pretty cheap.. :/

Actually, the only "cheat" I use is the one where you can play levels you haven't unlocked. If you can beat the level in question, I don't really consider it cheating

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

I still haven't figured out how to find a secret level. What do you need to do to find one? The help suggests there may be a special type of exit?

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
IP: Logged

I figured out how to do Euler, and frankly I feel like an idiot for not noticing it earlier!

But yeah, secret exits are available once you have reached your gem quota; I don't want to say more because they're, well... secret!

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Yep, once you reach the gem quota (easy mode quota on easy mode, same for hard) a special exit will appear. Look for them on levels with lots of grey walls - look for a wall that's changed slightly, that'll be the special exit.

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

Finally, I found the first secret level. Now I know what to look for, I'll be trying to find the others.

I thought of two more questions.

(1)
I just played Return to the Hive... and noticed that four of those yellow walls do not seem to be available in the editor! The Y-shaped one can be found in the main Walls panel, but the inverse Y, the two diagonals, and the vertical ones are nowhere to be found. Is it possible to get these in the editor?

(2)
Does Subterra II support additional levelsets? That is, would Radiant make an expansion set if there were enough levels?

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[Last edited by Celtic Minstrel at 09-13-2008 06:13 PM]

Danjen02
Level: Roachling

Rank Points: 11
Registered: 11-08-2007
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1. No, I don't think so. I believe Radiant said they were not available for editor use.

2. Of course! We just need more levels.

____________________________
SubTerra
- Ultimate rank
- 2009 level design contest, 2nd place

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
Registered: 05-10-2005
IP: Logged

Celtic Minstrel wrote:
I just played Return to the Hive... and noticed that four of those yellow walls do not seem to be available in the editor! The Y-shaped one can be found in the main Walls panel, but the inverse Y, the two diagonals, and the vertical ones are nowhere to be found. Is it possible to get these in the editor?

I'm not sure if these were ever available in ST2, or they might have been available early on. Maybe they're like the Subterra logo walls used in my Subterra Forever level - available early on, but dropped in the editor in later versions, though still supported.

Celtic Minstrel
Level: Roachling
Rank Points: 12
Registered: 09-06-2008
IP: Logged

No, the Subterra logo wall is available in the editor.