The_Red_Hawk
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I thought I wrote about this before, but I can't find it so I'll write it again.

I think it would be good if a thread was set up where people can come with ideas for a room that they can't work out, and the forum can give them one.

If everyone thinks this is good, then let's start. If everyone thinks this is bad, this thread can fade into obscurity.

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Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Oneiromancer
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If you wrote about it before, and no one answered you, and you can't find it, I think that's a pretty good definition of "fading into obscurity".

I remember you wrote about this, and I think I commented that I had suggested something similar in the Challenges forum:
http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=623 . It's basically the same thing except you are challenging people to make rooms instead of asking for help. But no one really cared too much there either.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

The_Red_Hawk
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Oneiromancer wrote:
If you wrote about it before, and no one answered you, and you can't find it, I think that's a pretty good definition of "fading into obscurity".

I remember you wrote about this, and I think I commented that I had suggested something similar in the Challenges forum:
http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=623 . It's basically the same thing except you are challenging people to make rooms instead of asking for help. But no one really cared too much there either.

Where is it????? because I certainly can't find it.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Oneiromancer
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Well...maybe I didn't respond to it then. Which means that 1 less person cared the last time. Or perhaps you didn't say anything, although I could have sworn I remembered seeing you post that.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

agaricus5
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
I thought I wrote about this before, but I can't find it so I'll write it again.

I think it would be good if a thread was set up where people can come with ideas for a room that they can't work out, and the forum can give them one.

If everyone thinks this is good, then let's start. If everyone thinks this is bad, this thread can fade into obscurity.

I think this should explain why it's not going to be popular:

"Within our halls, great knowledge grows.
Outside the walls, there wait our foes
To steal all thought that we compose.
Let each speak not that which he knows."

I find it hard that people are just going to give you ideas to use in your hold. It's more likely that they will use them for their own.

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

The_Red_Hawk
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agaricus5 wrote: I find it hard that people are just going to give you ideas to use in your hold. It's more likely that they will use them for their own.

Friendly people would. People who see no problem in letting others use their ideas.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Friendly people would. People who see no problem in letting others use their ideas.

Heh, heh...this from the guy who doesn't believe in Anyone Edit because it's like stealing a copyright. Very highly amusing.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

The_Red_Hawk
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Heh, heh...this from the guy who doesn't believe in Anyone Edit because it's like stealing a copyright. Very highly amusing.

I never said I don't believe in Anyone Edit. I only said that I don't like people being able to manipulate my hold.

I don't mind people using my ideas either, as long as it's not an out-and-out copy, and not in bulk.

[Edited by The_Red_Hawk on 01-01-2004 at 02:02 AM GMT]

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

Mattcrampy
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agaricus5 wrote:

"Within our halls, great knowledge grows.
Outside the walls, there wait our foes
To steal all thought that we compose.
Let each speak not that which he knows."

You'll see this more and more around DROD as time goes on. It's a good alternative for 'I'm saying too much', I've found.

Matt

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What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

mrimer
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I've got an idea! How about filling up a room with 1200 roach queens!

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Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

zex20913
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I think I did that already

Friendly people would. People who see no problem in letting others use their ideas.

People are selfish. The only reason people do things for others is because they feel it would help themselves. (Volunteerism gives people an overall good sense of being. Mother Theresa couldn't have lived with herself if she didn't help others. Try throwing other examples at me.) That said, people will make their own holds before contributing to somebody else's.

And I hope you don't equate friendliness with giving ideas for free. Time, humor, yes, but that's symbiotic. You're asking for a parasitic thing. It won't fly.

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agaricus5
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If you allow an "Anyone Edit" version, testers will be able to see the hold better, test it more efficiently, and so be more likely to give you ideas and help for upcoming levels. Do remember, by making a hold that you are purposefully keeping unlocked because you are worried about copying, then at the same time asking for help from other people to give you ideas for your own hold, it is, like Zex says, being a little "parasitic". If you be more generous to people, then people are more likely to be generous to you.

Side note: I think that being selfish is a natural behavioural trait, probably an evolutionary one to help us survive.

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Resident Medic/Mycologist

DiMono
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Instead of this, how about a thread where architects can discuss how they come up with their room, level and puzzle ideas? Not share the ideas themselves, just the process they happen to use. Then we can get a collection of them and post them on the main site.

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Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

The_Red_Hawk
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Yes - we could use an Architect's Toolkit article for that. Maybe we could also post specific room ideas.

____________________________
Slashing, whirling, diving, twirling,
Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

DiMono
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Somewhere in the DROD forums, Erik posted a few level concepts he worked with. You should find that thread and stick a link to it in this one.

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Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

jdyer
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One thing I did for Beethro's Dance of Death is give myself a restriction and try to think of all the things that could be done with that restriction. For 1N and 2N, for example, I had thought -- ok, I've already used an orb the normal way and trapdoors, what else can I do? -- and the idea came to me.

Rather than thinking of ideas from rooms wholesale, it helps to pick apart to the essentials and recombine. For example, it might be possible to have a 'use goblin to kill snake' puzzle much like the ones in Dugan's, but presuming you start from scratch there are quite a number of ways you can do it. You can then start a thought process going -- ok, what are all the ways I can have a level that forces me to keep a monster alive? -- and work from there.

And of course, you don't have to stop there -- try tossing in another idea as a complication. How could you make a level which forces you to keep a monster alive (like Dugan's) *and* keep from hitting certain orbs (like Cerebella Archipelago). I found one of the best levels in Temple of Kurath (it's in the Sanctuary level) had more or less a triple combination. It was also rather difficult, but even a combination doesn't have to be difficult (especially if you 'ramp up' the difficulty by demonstrating each idea singly first).

If you want to do a 'hack-and-slash' room, I would suggest rather than just placing a horde of monsters and seeing if you survive, to try to get across a specific strategic idea (or set of ideas) you want to embody. The levels of these sort that are interesting are (in my opinion, at least) ones which require choices, like -- do I kill the brains first, or do I need to reach those queens? what order do I perform things in? There's a certain point where finishing a room requires more avoidance of typos than actual thought -- try to avoid this.

Mattcrampy
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DiMono wrote:
Instead of this, how about a thread where architects can discuss how they come up with their room, level and puzzle ideas? Not share the ideas themselves, just the process they happen to use. Then we can get a collection of them and post them on the main site.

This was exactly where I wanted to go with Architect's Toolkit. Obviously we have nothing about actually building rooms and holds, so the first few articles will probably be fairly general, but as I start playing holds and watching rooms I'll start getting in touch with people to write about particular rooms made.

Matt

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What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

DiMono
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Hey Matt, I have another idea for an Architects' Toolkit item. Would it be bad form for me to post it up here, having already had the first tool?


...that came out a little wrong and really twisted, but I'll leave it as is because it's funny

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Deploy the... I think it's a yellow button... it's usually flashing... it makes the engines go... WHOOSH!

Mattcrampy
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E-mail me. We'll use it as no. 4 or 5.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?