silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged

File: TCB Upper Lowest 1S1W trapped.demo (7.6 KB)
Downloaded 104 times.
License: Public Domain

(a) there really should be a checkpoint or three on the platform. the only checkpoint in the room can only be reached when you've finished the room. might was well not be there.

(b) I can't get closer than 60 moves, even with chat help... I mean, if it were ~10 moves, I'd just think I need to work on efficiency, but it's 60-70 moves. it's a lot worse than that, but I'm told there's no real lynchpin. Still, I must be missing something more than the hint Oneiromancer gave me, because I was using his hint...

death demo attached.


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Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Here's all I can say about my recent solutions (since I am playing in the editor and can't save demos:

Finally...don't forget that clicking on a citizen tells you what its target is. This can be key for the final tip.

Game on,

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"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

silver
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 915
Registered: 01-18-2005
IP: Logged

it turns out I was ignoring your hint #2. finally got it!


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[Last edited by silver at 04-07-2007 09:43 AM]

stigant
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1182
Registered: 08-19-2004
IP: Logged

Give that one eye romancer two more points! Got it first time after following these tips. With plenty of time to spare. I even had a string of dropping 9 trap doors in a row!

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Progress Quest Progress

McFrugal
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 59
Registered: 04-09-2005
IP: Logged

There's something odd about Citizen pathfinding. If they run into an obstacle, they just sit there for like 4 turns before trying to find a different path. Also it seems they don't always choose the nearest available task- at the beginning of this room it's near impossible to prevent trapdoor removals even if there's only one or two trapdoors in the middle.

I managed to complete this room like 3 separate times, not realizing that the completion of the fuse was the only important thing and I didn't need to somehow get to the fuse before the bridge dropped. Then I managed to get one of the Citizens to remove a trapdoor right from under another one

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[Last edited by McFrugal at 04-16-2007 03:22 PM]

kzc
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 212
Registered: 04-21-2005
IP: Logged

Wait a minute - you mean it's actually possible to solve this room by keeping the builders busy with the interior trapdoors? I gave up on that strategy and managed to beat it by I reckon that's one o' them unintended solutions.

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[Last edited by kzc at 04-16-2007 03:23 PM]

Zophos
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 45
Registered: 03-15-2007
IP: Logged

All right...this room is still frustrating me. I've attempted to follow all the advice above, and the best I've ever gotten is about 10-15 moves short. Unfortunately, because of the chaotic nature of multiple builders in a small space, I can't even reproduce that, much less figure out how to improve on it.

(BTW, I do mean 'chaotic', in the sense that it's not random, but a small change in my behavior seems to produce wildly different results at the end, and I can't see any good way of predicting the change. So, it's next to impossible to tell if I'm getting closer to a solution, or farther away.)

This is the last room on the level, and I've been stopped for over a day. I just want to get past it. Can someone post a demo please?

Zophos
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 45
Registered: 03-15-2007
IP: Logged

File: TCB Upper Lowest 1S1W Victory.demo (7.7 KB)
Downloaded 520 times.
License: Public Domain

Heh....H&S magic works again. Not that I could tell you why THIS worked and THAT didn't.

Anyway, I'll answer my own request. Working demo attached.

worm
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 19
Registered: 06-15-2005
IP: Logged

I don't understand. Am I blocking them from the outside tiles while removing the inner tiles? Do the inner tiles have a greater priority? Because it seems like even if I keep the inner tiles got they snatch the outer ones just as much.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3171
Registered: 10-14-2006
IP: Logged

The builders working on the trapdoors are standing on a bridge. Once they remove all the outside trapdoors, which are holding the bridge up, it will fall. The inside trapdoors are only connected by corners, and thus do not affect whether the bridge stays or falls.

worm
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 19
Registered: 06-15-2005
IP: Logged

Ah, alright. So ideally I want

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[Last edited by mrimer at 07-09-2007 10:12 PM]

disoriented
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2514
Registered: 08-07-2007
IP: Logged

kzc wrote:
Wait a minute - you mean it's actually possible to solve this room by keeping the builders busy with the interior trapdoors? I gave up on that strategy and managed to beat it by

Click here to view the secret text

×pointing my sword west and moving back and forth under the northeast-most supporting trapdoor. This kept builders from getting to it until I was ready to step off.

I reckon that's one o' them unintended solutions.

This is the only way I managed to finish the room.

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34th Skywatcher

Best to PM me, since I might miss your message on CaravelNet chat.

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 3876
Registered: 12-28-2004
IP: Logged

It took me a couple of dozens of tries to get it but I DID it . I have to say unlike most of other achievements, completing this level brought me no sense of satisfaction. It was pure luck and I copied first half of the moves from Zophos' demo (after first 100-150 moves I started to forget where to move next and I am not sure how, but I did a better move and had 2 trapdoors alive when I left the chamber).

Anyway, I just wanted to say that I am greatly disappointed with this level. I have to admit it is really tricky and is a great idea, but its randomness and requirement of both large amounts of skills AND luck don't seem to fit into an official hold, especially that it is very often stressed, that the main purpose of DROD is ability to understand and more or less foresee what will/can happen. Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't guess where they will move and how the gears will turn, nor could I come up with any tactic other than praying/hoping for enough luck to finish it.

I just had to point that, no offense to anyone, especially the architect .

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My website

DCLeadboot
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 46
Registered: 04-11-2008
IP: Logged

Zophos wrote:Working demo attached.

*watches demo, confused*
How does this room even make sense?
This is more about dumb luck than logic!

And it's a poor reflection on the design of the puzzle that I'm forced to follow this demo to the letter to even stand an earthly of beating it...

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Never underestimate... the Leadboot!! O_o

Madrigal_Gurneyhalt
Level: Goblin
Rank Points: 15
Registered: 02-14-2011
IP: Logged

Can it really be the case that after all this time there is still no better solution to this room than cross your fingers and keep moving?

I've now had getting on for a hundred abortive efforts and am still no closer than two fuse pieces short! The blocking method is a no go because eventually two builders get assigned to the same tile and one dodges round the back while you're blocking the other.

Surely this room should have been removed from the game by now? As it hasn't been then I'm afraid that I will be very shortly. I am more than happy to wrestle with a logical problem for as long as it takes but if it's just random drudgery I really don't see the point.

Yah, boo, hiss to the creator of the room for apparently having remained silent on the intentions after all these years.

Tuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1588
Registered: 02-22-2003
IP: Logged

File: TCB Upper Lowest 1S1W Victory.demo (7.3 KB)
Downloaded 241 times.
License: Public Domain

There's a victory demo in Zophos' post above -- don't feel bad about downloading and following it if you want to try for the intended solution.

And if you're just sick of the room completely, here's a demo that illustrates the unintended solution that kzc mentioned. This one is pretty trivial to copy.

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[Last edited by Tuttle at 04-17-2011 05:24 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5394
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thanks to testing a recent bug report on this room, I am now in possession of a written move sequence that solves the room and its challenge. I thought I'd post it for the sake of any future delvers who get stuck here. I know there's already a demo, but in a room like this that depends on finding an exact sequence of moves that works, using the demo probably means writing down and then copying its move sequence -- so I can at least save you the trouble of that first step.

Format:
Digits refer to DROD moves using the standard numpad layout (7 = NW, 8 = N, etc.)
Written numbers confirm how many times a digit is repeated.



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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 01-07-2016 05:03 PM]

KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
Thanks to testing a recent bug report on this room, I am now in possession of a written move sequence that solves the room and its challenge. I thought I'd post it for the sake of any future delvers who get stuck here. I know there's already a demo, but in a room like this that depends on finding an exact sequence of moves that works, using the demo probably means writing down and then copying its move sequence -- so I can at least save you the trouble of that first step.

Has anyone gotten this sequence to work? I first run into trouble on the second line; it sends me too far north and I wind up sitting on the edge and invalidating the challenge. It seems like the last 7 on the second line should be a 1. So are there typos here or am I just screwing things up?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5394
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Sorry. It looks like I skipped a chunk: "1355555" should precede that 7. Also, the first group of seven 5s in the fifth line should be nine 5s. I've fixed both of these now, and I've tested the sequence again and it works.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 01-07-2016 05:04 PM]

KevG
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 333
Registered: 08-16-2004
IP: Logged

Thanks for the help; I've always hated this room.

Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 2827
Registered: 06-21-2014
IP: Logged

Just redid this room. The move sequence Nuntar posted can be summarized much more cleanly.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 04-07-2016 10:51 PM]

Radiant
Level: Moderator

Rank Points: 143
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged

So I don't get what the achievement even means. Every tile of the bridge is adjacent to a pit, so what edge am I not allowed to stand on for more than one turn? Am I supposed to hop back and forth on trapdoor tiles or something?

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= Radiant =

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[Last edited by Radiant at 09-15-2019 11:03 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5394
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Sorry for the confusion. It's the tiles adjacent to the outer edge, not the middle diamond.


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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 09-15-2019 03:29 PM]

DCLeadboot
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 46
Registered: 04-11-2008
IP: Logged

Replaying this game 17 years on since the last time, and I still have no idea how this room even works.
What's the solution here? Is it just yet another luck-based puzzle?

____________________________
Never underestimate... the Leadboot!! O_o

Tuttle
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1588
Registered: 02-22-2003
IP: Logged

It definitely feels like it. The intended solution seems to be repeatedly dropping the inner trapdoors, making the pink builders rebuild those instead of destroying the outer trapdoors. But there's still a fair bit of trial and undo required.

The unintended (but easier) solution is just to block them from the easternmost trapdoor on the northern edge; demo in this post above.

(The challenged introduced in TCB 5.0 requires the hard way, although Dragon Fogel's post has an algorithm to follow.)

kieranmillar
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3771
Registered: 07-11-2014
IP: Logged

If you dislike this room and don't understand how to logically determine a solution, you're not alone. Over the years this room has become infamous in the community and an easy contender for one of the worst rooms in any official hold.