ErikH2000
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I would like to test the functionality for creating one hold with levels from different authors. There is already a collaboration project just starting up, but I'm interested in something just for testing that will generate bugs for us sooner. Could some people try putting together multi-author holds using levels from the holds that are already out there? Also, we should try to test some common situations like updating a level in a multi-author hold with the latest version received from a collaborator.

Another feature that hasn't seen much testing yet: exits to other holds (as opposed to exits to levels in the same hold). For example, we could try creating two holds with exits to each other. What happens when one hold is imported into a new installation without the other? What happens when both holds are imported? Stuff like that.

On a related note, I finished some artwork for certificates last weekend. Everyone who contributed to the DROD:AE release or DROD.net site will get a certificate in the mail with your name and achievements written in Sihmpuhl Englihsh. I'll contact people for street addresses after the release.

-Erik



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Mister
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ErikH2000 wrote:
What happens when one hold is imported into a new installation without the other?

What about this:
If Beethro takes the stairs to a non-existent hold, show a picture similar to the stairs to "level 26" in Dugan's, except the text says "dungeon out of service", then a text dialog with some explanation, and finally return to the last level, next to the stairs.

ErikH2000
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Mister wrote:
What about this:

Well, we should already do something to handle this case. (I can't remember what exactly.) I was just saying "What happens when..." as an example of something to test, not particularly wondering about something new to put there.

-Erik

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mrimer
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Um...I think currently if two holds have exits, each pointing levels in the other hold, then it won't let you import either of them if neither has been imported yet (exiting with a "Level Not Found" message). We had basically agreed to not allow this case. Hmm...but that's not very friendly. Let me think...

One thing that we could do is allow importing either one of them, and when it sees stairways that go to holds you don't have, then just have them reenter the same level rather than quitting the import and not loading the hold at all. (We don't want them such stairs to exit the hold, because that might unlock editing privileges prematurely.) This way's more friendly, but it still doesn't completely solve the problem of getting the holds to point to each other.

How about we alter this "Level Not Found" message to say something like "Attention: The imported hold has stairways leading to levels you don't currently have. To get these exits to function properly, import the holds these stairways lead to and then import this hold again to complete its installation." We can allow reimporting of this hold by decrementing its lastModified timestamp (otherwise, it would not allow it). This isn't too elegant, but I can't think of another way to get it to work. (How else to you handle cyclical references without a two-pass system?)

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Oneiromancer
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Well, can't you just make it possible to import multiple holds at once, instead of one at a time? Or, when this occurs, just say "please locate the hold to which this stairway points to" and then you import that one too, and everything is happy. Yes, more dialog boxes, but from a user standpoint that is a pretty simple solution (from a programming standpoint it may be a very annoying and difficult one, I don't know).

Game on,

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ErikH2000
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mrimer wrote:
Um...I think currently if two holds have exits, each pointing levels in the other hold, then it won't let you import either of them if neither has been imported yet (exiting with a "Level Not Found" message). We had basically agreed to not allow this case. Hmm...but that's not very friendly. Let me think...

I wasn't even thinking of the catch-22 problem when I brought that case up. It's nice that you caught it.

I like Oneiromancer's solution with bringing up the file selection dialog twice (or for whatever number of dependencies must be resolved). It seems ideal in that it would never allow a hold with missing dependencies to be imported by itself, but it does seem much harder to write.

I think your idea for allowing the import but displaying a dependency message sounds like it would work fine if we could show a list of hold names that are needed.

Depositing the player at the beginning of the same level when an exit can't be taken to another hold seems confusing. Maybe we could check for the existence of the hold/level and if not found: Display an explanation message and call CCurrentGame::UndoCommand() to return to the point before the player stepped on the stairs.

If that proved difficult, I could go along with the original plan of sending player to the same level.

-Erik

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mrimer
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ErikH2000 wrote:
Maybe we could check for the existence of the hold/level and if not found: Display an explanation message and call CCurrentGame::UndoCommand() to return to the point before the player stepped on the stairs.

We could do that if we were to change the view definition of the stairs data in the DB. As always, it only stores the local level ID of the destination level. How do you store the ID of a level you don't have? The simplest thing I can think of would then be to set the dest level ID to (DWORD)-1 for those stairs that go somewhere the player doesn't have (remember, a value of 0 means exiting the hold). Then we could catch it and do as you suggest. How about that?

Having a dialog pop up to import multiple holds simultaneously could conceivably be a nightmare. I wouldn't do it if you paid me. Anyone else who wants to implement it is free to try. But displaying a list of hold names sounds like a good idea. (This import process is already wayyyyy to complicated!)

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Schik
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mrimer wrote:
Anyone else who wants to implement it is free to try.

So will you fix all the bugs introduced by someone else trying this?

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ErikH2000
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mrimer wrote:
We could do that if we were to change the view definition of the stairs data in the DB. As always, it only stores the local level ID of the destination level. How do you store the ID of a level you don't have?

Yeah, I see how that is a problem.

The simplest thing I can think of would then be to set the dest level ID to (DWORD)-1 for those stairs that go somewhere the player doesn't have (remember, a value of 0 means exiting the hold). Then we could catch it and do as you suggest. How about that?

Hmm. It seems that you bring up a problem that has to be solved whether we handle exits to nonexistent holds as you first suggested (send player to same level) or as I suggested (disallow player exit). I can see that you could either set the LevelID of an exit-to-nonexistent-hold so that it points to itself or you could store a "nowhere" -1 value there.

But what happens when you later import the second hold? The references to the second hold in the first hold were set to -1 when the first hold was imported. So I don't see a clear way to fix the -1 LevelIDs in the first hold to point to levels in the second hold after it the second hold is imported. The required information was lost during the import of the first hold.

Having a dialog pop up to import multiple holds simultaneously could conceivably be a nightmare. I wouldn't do it if you paid me. Anyone else who wants to implement it is free to try. But displaying a list of hold names sounds like a good idea. (This import process is already wayyyyy to complicated!)

You know that code the best, so if you say it's complicated, I definitely believe you. Let's find a simple way to do this if we can.

Speaking of which, what do you think of this? In the next release, we change stairs to have a complete GID to the destination level. That would fix our catch-22 problems, right? I'm assuming this change is non-trivial and a bad thing to introduce this late in beta. So in this release, we just disable the feature of specifying exits to other holds, by hiding that "show levels from other holds" check box.

-Erik

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butsam
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Sorry, a Windows nuke has prevented me from being here the last couple of days. (It's that time of the month again, yup. LOL)

I like the idea of "Dungeon not available", and perhaps a special ID number, say -1, could be reserved for such a case. In addition, it could have the Hold's unique identification (name and author, or unique number, or something like that) stored in its data. Then it eliminates the catch-22. The only other problem to deal with is what to do when the hold is finally imported. Of course the ID number would have to be changed...perhaps whenever a new hold is imported, the game searches all the old holds for any -1 IDs, and if there is a -1 ID, it checks to see if it should instead be linked to the new hold, based on the name and author, or a unique ID number for the hold, or whatever other criteria to identify that hold uniquely.

Sam

mrimer
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Erik and I discussed some things and here's what we came up with to tie up most of the loose ends in beta development:

1. Add personalized end hold text. We'll add a button to the editor screen to allow you to write your own personalized message that the player sees when they finish your hold!

2. Disallow circular referencing holds. We're worried that this would keep us in bug-fixing mode for too long, so we're going to turn off the option of stairs going to levels in other holds for this release. And it doesn't even really buy you that much. But we plan to turn it back on in the next release, along with new other options that will make it more useful, like having multiple level entrances! Then you will be able to make all those nasty multi-level and multi-hold puzzles that you've been dreaming about!

3. Multiple line text editor widget. This is important, so I'm gonna start work today on a text editor box that allows viewing and entering multiple lines of text!

4. Impose item placement constaints on edge of room. We feel that not confusing the player is important, so we're going to disallow placing objects that Beethro can't stand on, like orbs and tar, on the very edge of the room (so entering the room doesn't cause weird things to happen).

5. Beethro level start placement constraints. Under Beethro, allow only: floor (nothing on top of it), trapdoor, door (any type closed/open). Under Beethro's sword: nothing that can be hit by a sword (orbs, monsters, crumbly wall, tar). We don't like the business of putting Beethro in the middle of something at the level start when it would be just as simple to design the room to put him in that state later. Like if you wanted Beethro to drink an invisibility potion, the path he must take could force him to drink it. So why confuse the player?

6. Multiple Inivisibility potions toggle effect. We'll add the rule that if Beethro drinks an invisibility potion while invisible, he becomes visible again. This shouldn't break any existing puzzles while adding potential for an even richer variety of puzzles.

7. Minimize gold plating (feature creep). We're going to hold off for this release on adding more new features to the room editor. We've got to get 1.6 out the door so that we can begin work on all the cool stuff that we're planning to add to the next version! And...oooh...they're gonna be good! We'll try to get some more good editor features into the next release.

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eytanz
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mrimer wrote:
Erik and I discussed some things and here's what we came up with to tie up most of the loose ends in beta development:

1. Add personalized end hold text.

Nice.

2. Disallow circular referencing holds.

Good idea - this is hardly a feature worth slowing down the release for IMO.

3. Multiple line text editor widget.

Cool!

4. Impose item placement constaints on edge of room.

This one I don't like; or, more accurately, I think it's a really bad idea. Basically, it's a case of hurting a lot of legitimate designs in order to prevent some bad designs. For one, it means you can't use tar to block an entrance without losing a whole line; same goes for places with tight orb placement. This is not a minor issue - especially in the case of tar in complicated, often a single line is crucial. This change will significantly reduce the amount of possible puzzle designs.

I really think that some things need to be left beyond the realm of enforcing in the software. If you want to prevent people from designing rooms where Beethro can stand on an orb/tar, you should just tell them not to do so, and say that holds where this is allowed won't be included in whatever official method for hold distribution is implemented. But don't penalize everyone just because some people might potenetially abuse a feature.

Also, it's quite easy to design a room that places Beethro on a wall. How is this any less confusing? Will you now disallow walls on room edges?

5. Beethro level start placement constraints.

This, on the other hand, is a good idea. The current state can only lead to abuses - there are no legitimate uses.

6. Multiple Inivisibility potions toggle effect.

Excellent!

7. Minimize gold plating (feature creep).

Makes sense. I think everything important is already in or on this list.

Again, I'd really, really recommend that you re-consider 4. It's going to do far more harm than good. All the rest are really great, though.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-17-2003 at 07:58 PM GMT: Misplaced a quote tag]

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krammer
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I don't see the problem with the current system - in fact the worst situation I've seen is Beethro on a green door, which doesn't really cause problems.

Or - treat tar and orbs on the edge like walls, so they have to match to walls or tar or orbs on the corresponding spot in the adjacent room. That way they can still be allowed, but the editor will highlight them if they are in a room entrance to show that it might be a confusing design issue.

I think that if you make the change you suggest, then you might as well put in automatic wall/floor matching between rooms. I can see levels where bad matching would be interesting, because what looks like an exit from a room leads to a wall - not brilliant design, maybe, but certainly legitimate.

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eytanz
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Okay, here's a question -

How hard would it be to change the code for movement from room to room to ensure that there is a legitimate landing point? I.e., if Beethro ends up standing somewhere he shouldn't, can't you just bump him back to the old room? That will solve the problem (Beethro will never end up on something he shouldn't), without limiting designs.

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Oneiromancer
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Someone somewhere mentioned the tar rooms on level 24, how the tar goes to the edges there (I can't find that post for some reason...). But there is really only one place on each level that it does this. Would it break the puzzle to push the tar back in those two places, and then there are no "official" exceptions to the room edge rules? I personally think that part of the beauty of a good room design is in making it work in a limited space, including not having certain elements exist on the room edges.

Game on,

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ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
How hard would it be to change the code for movement from room to room to ensure that there is a legitimate landing point?

That's a reasonable way of handling it, but I think to implement this the right way, it's actually a large amount of work.

-Erik

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eytanz
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So why not make the rooms smaller?

The rooms in level 24 could not work if the tar was one square back - that would make them far more trivial. There are many, many other good rooms that could use this space. Besides, I thought part of the point of the editor was to allow people to come up with rooms that are different from Dugan's Dungeon, rather than more of the same.

Anyway, the main reason I'm objecting to this change is the principle - I really think that it's not a good idea to enforce one's concenption of "good" design in the software. This is just like the "no placing multiple brains" thing. There's already at least one good room designed with a big block of brains. Just because Erik, or Mike, or me or you think of a good room design that needs this space at the moment doesn't mean that there aren't many. And the problem of Beethro stepping onto things he shouldn't, while a real one, is also one that can easily be prevented by the designers - there are far worse design mistakes that the editor can't prevent (unsolvable rooms) and other instances of the same problem that it can't either (Beethro on walls). Making this sort of change just because it can potentially lead to a problem - instead of fixing the game so that the problem doesn't exist - is a big vote of non-confidence in the room builders out there.

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eytanz
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ErikH2000 wrote:

eytanz wrote:
How hard would it be to change the code for movement from room to room to ensure that there is a legitimate landing point?

That's a reasonable way of handling it, but I think to implement this the right way, it's actually a large amount of work.

-Erik

So just trust the room builders not to do something as silly as build a room which allows Beethro to stand on an orb - or at least to fix their rooms if they do.

At least wait until there is a proliferation of bad holds before deciding this is a problem worth such a strong measure to prevent.

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ErikH2000
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Someone somewhere mentioned the tar rooms on level 24, how the tar goes to the edges there (I can't find that post for some reason...). But there is really only one place on each level that it does this. Would it break the puzzle to push the tar back in those two places, and then there are no "official" exceptions to the room edge rules?

No, it wouldn't break the puzzle to push the tar back. But also there isn't any bad effect for leaving it there as it is now.

-Erik

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StuartK
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mrimer wrote:
5. Beethro level start placement constraints. Under Beethro, allow only: floor (nothing on top of it), trapdoor, door (any type closed/open). Under Beethro's sword: nothing that can be hit by a sword (orbs, monsters, crumbly wall, tar). We don't like the business of putting Beethro in the middle of something at the level start when it would be just as simple to design the room to put him in that state later. Like if you wanted Beethro to drink an invisibility potion, the path he must take could force him to drink it. So why confuse the player?

I'll concentrate my point on the last specific issue you raise here, since Eytanz deals with the general point better (and far more concisely ) than I could.

Why would the player be confused? He'd hear the potion sound, he'd see the potion 'shadow'. A level designer could leave a message by the starting square, to explain his circumstances, if it were felt 'orientation' were necessary (IMO it would not) And allowing for immediate potion consumption upon entering a level or room, would allow puzzles to be constructed around it, that would not otherwise be possible. It works now, it could be used now without any 'bad' in-game consequences, why change it?

The invisibility potion is equivalent to a 'stealth' feature. Basically, the idea is to traverse the map completely undetected, as much as is possible. Sneak around and up on your enemies, and backstab them. If you consume a potion immediately upon entering a room, you can do that. Sneak around the entire room, without any of the creatures being any the wiser, except when it's too late. This could be very difficult to do. You'll have yourself a 'pure' stealth puzzle, and that has a great appeal to me (the single FPS that has most engaged me is Thief, an entirely different, more cerebral experience than anything else I've encountered in the first-person action genre) If the first turn or turns are spent with creatures able to detect Beethro, they will move in, and the ever so careful placement of those creatures will be ruined - the traps sprung. Of course I've not designed such a room yet, nor do I know if it would work so well in practice as theory, but then of course there's not much point when you preclude the possibility, for IMO no good reason...

Oh dear, and I'm not finished yet. Sorry...

Perhaps you should leave the level designers to do the designing, according to their own creative and intellectual whims, by allowing for (rather than specifically preventing) game features interacting with each other in interesting ways. Of course restrict obvious things (orbs shouldn't have anything placed on top of them, though it'd be nice to place them on e.g. trapdoors or pits, to enable better map art construction, or screen edges, where space is short, relying on the designer to prevent entrance to the room on that square) or stuff that would be more trouble to fix than avoid (the snake placement bug for instance, for which I'd still prefer a better fix than that proposed, in order to allow for e.g. timed access to potions)

The rooms which rely on awkward, limited gimmicks at the expense of good design will become tired, and known for what they are. Perhaps I'll even be responsible for some of them (I admit this possibility) purely in the interests of experimenting with the engine to see what works and what doesnt. The truely good puzzles with intuitive, well designed solutions will still stand out. There'll just be less of them

mrimer
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I think I agree with everyone's line of thinking: how about we try not allowing entering the room if walls or tar or orbs are on the entrance square. (In fact, I just noticed a bug in the current room exiting logic, which I'll fix for build 30: if you clean out a room and then try to exit a room on one side and you can't (e.g. there's no room on the map to go to), then it still clears the room (turns it white) and saves room demos, etc., as if you'd left it. So we have to perform this check to be certain the player can exit the room before doing all this stuff.)

This is coded up and will be in build 30. Try it out, and if this is too lenient for everyone we can make it more restrictive.

[Edited by mrimer on 07-17-2003 at 11:45 PM]

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Oneiromancer
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StuartK wrote:
And allowing for immediate potion consumption upon entering a level or room, would allow puzzles to be constructed around it, that would not otherwise be possible.

Honestly, if you have a one-square wide entrance to a room, just extend the hallway by one square and put the potion on that square. You should be able to design the room around this small protrusion. 1E of my hold (The Dreaming) forces Beethro to drink an invisibility potion, and does involve moving somewhat stealthily, although it could stand to be improved quite a lot (one of these days...).

I just wrote and erased about three different paragraphs responding to other issues that were brought up, but I think I'm starting not to care any more. The thing I agree with the most is that a feature lock needs to be implemented, so the remaining bugs can be squished and a final, stable, and fully working version can be released. Then we can argue about room size and which new monsters to include.

Game on,

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ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
Anyway, the main reason I'm objecting to this change is the principle - I really think that it's not a good idea to enforce one's concenption of "good" design in the software.

Eytan, I don't want to feed an argument. I'll try to sum up my position briefly:

Sometimes I make a "disallow" decision because I want to promote good level design, AKA "vote of non-confidence in room builders". Note that I don't think anyone in the beta group or DROD.net forum is going to have trouble with a little strangeness in their DROD game. All you folks have already invested some time into the game and are fairly proficient with computers in general. However, there's other less-proficient people out there that need a simple and polished interface in a game before they will spend time with it. So for me it is a question of finding a balance between the power users and casual users.

Sometimes I make a "disallow" decision because it is more work to implement a feature so that a certain kind of placement will be allowed in the editor. Mike and I are anxious to get the release out. Making large changes late in beta effectively discards some of the testing work as you throw out the code that has already been tested and replace it with new code that must be tested from scratch. To avoid this waste of time, we push some of the larger changes into the next release where they can be efficiently tested in a new beta cycle.

Don't interpret this as an attempt to "shut you down", but I'm not going to spend much time arguing my decisions. I've read and thought about everything you've written during beta, and will continue to do so. Believe me, I'm glad you speak up about how you think DROD should be.

-Erik


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eytanz
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Sure - I understand perfectly. It's your project, your decisions, and I respect that. As a developer, I find that the best sort of feedback is that which is as blunt as possible - but I also know that just because someone feels strongly about something is hardly a good enough reason to put something in my own project, except if that someone happens to be me. And, while I still think you're wrong in this, it's your project and it's your opinion that matters. And hey, I'm occasionally wrong. Not this time, but occasionally .

Oh, and just so it's clear what my position actually is before I end my side of this argument, I think that collision detection will be nice, but the important thing is not changing the current situation. I'm pretty sure that even if the stupidest people alive come to play with the current DROD editor (and they won't), you won't run into the sort of problem you seem to be anticipating.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-18-2003 at 12:15 AM]

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ErikH2000
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eytanz wrote:
Sure - I understand perfectly. It's your project, your decisions, and I respect that. As a developer, I find that the best sort of feedback is that which is as blunt as possible -

Cool. I've taken all your comments as constructive.

Oh, and just so it's clear what my position actually is before I end my side of this argument, I think that collision detection will be nice, but the important thing is not changing the current situation. I'm pretty sure that even if the stupidest people alive come to play with the current DROD editor (and they won't), you won't run into the sort of problem you seem to be anticipating.

It looks like it wasn't as hard as I thought to add collision detection, since Mike put it in already. If it doesn't cause any more problems, then it's likely to stay in and we won't need the disallow-on-perimeter rules.

-Erik

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mrimer
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Registered: 02-04-2003
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Whew! I put in all that new stuff that I mentioned on here. Several great additions. I think everyone should be more satisfied with the way things are in build 30. Except for any bugs still in there, and of course any that might have been introduced with these changes. (I haven't had an opportunity to squash any bugs over the last couple of days, as I've been adding this stuff. But I'll try to get back to that as soon as I can.)

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.