Announcement: Be excellent to each other.


Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Bugs : Bug: deleting hold start level
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Poster Message
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
If you delete a hold's start level (i.e. the one you first begin the hold in), it becomes unplayable and unexportable. What should happen is that another level becomes the start level.

There should also be a manual option for making a level the start - it may well be that I will wish to re-order the levels after I have designed them all because I originally miscalculated the difficulty or something. (also, if you copy a level from another hold, it's impossible for it to be the start level at the moment - if you want to copy an start level, you must do so room by room onto the new hold's pre-created start level).

[Edited by eytanz on 07-14-2003 at 06:23 PM]

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
07-14-2003 at 06:22 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
krammer
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 904
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
Read the help file, Eytan...

Ctrl+S marks a level as the start. But I agree, an on screen button would be nice for it.

____________________________
+++ Divide by Cucumber Error +++ Please Reinstall Universe and Reboot +++

"Oook!"
07-14-2003 at 06:33 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
Oh. In any case, the bug remains - deleting the level should not cause the hold to be corrupted.

Edit: um , maybe this isn't a bug - the hold I was copying from was apparently corrupted. Trying to reproduce this with new holds didn't show the bug. I'll keep the thread here in case it is a bug after all.

[Edited by eytanz on 07-14-2003 at 06:57 PM]

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
07-14-2003 at 06:54 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
I don't know, I never would have guessed that there would be a keyboard shortcut for making a level the start level. Keyboard shortcuts should really be for things that you do over and over again, like copy and paste, not once-in-a-blue-moon events like having to reassign the start level. It makes the most sense for a dialog to appear when the original start level is deleted.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams
07-14-2003 at 06:56 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
Yup. I wouldn't bet on this being changed, though.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
07-14-2003 at 07:02 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5059
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
Oneiromancer wrote:
I don't know, I never would have guessed that there would be a keyboard shortcut for making a level the start level.
That's why you read the documentation ;)
Keyboard shortcuts should really be for things that you do over and over again, like copy and paste, not once-in-a-blue-moon events like having to reassign the start level.
One more reason to not take up already scarce screen space with a button that never gets used.
It makes the most sense for a dialog to appear when the original start level is deleted.
In this case, the next level created should become the start level.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
07-14-2003 at 08:06 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Re: Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
mrimer wrote:
Oneiromancer wrote:
Keyboard shortcuts should really be for things that you do over and over again, like copy and paste, not once-in-a-blue-moon events like having to reassign the start level.
One more reason to not take up already scarce screen space with a button that never gets used.

Well, if you don't put it on screen, you will ensure that it never gets used (or, more accurately, that people will keep asking in the forums about it).

My belief is that if you have enough real-estate to devote 5% of the screen to a title-bar that tells people they are in an "editor" - a fact I assume most of them know - then you have enough real-estate for as many buttons as you want.

Other places you waste real-estate in this screen:
- The room style list could easily be made half the size with scrollsbars. It's not something people use often.
- For that matter, the hold selector and level selector can also be made shorter if necessary.
- The line where it says "choose room" is totally empty other than that admonition - which is rather unnecessary, since it doesn't take a lot of brainpower to figure out what the box below it is for.
- The room screenshot can be made smaller.
- The button that says "help" is far less useful than a button for setting a level as the starting level.

Think about how many posts there have been so far - in a short period of time with few people using the editor - about people who don't even know about the ability to cut&paste rooms/levels. This will just increase - documentation will only be read by about 25% of your users, and that's if you're lucky. The screenspace can definitely be made friendlier.

For example, see a mockup of a screen that has everything on it but isn't much more cluttered, and I didn't even use up all the space I could free (ignore my horrendous graphical skills):




____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
07-14-2003 at 08:31 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
StuartK
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 564
Registered: 06-10-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Re: Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
mrimer wrote:
Oneiromancer wrote:
I don't know, I never would have guessed that there would be a keyboard shortcut for making a level the start level.
That's why you read the documentation ;)
Documentation is for wusses. Real men don't read the documentation, except possibly for something that could potentially kill them, and even then it's 50:50
Keyboard shortcuts should really be for things that you do over and over again, like copy and paste, not once-in-a-blue-moon events like having to reassign the start level.
One more reason to not take up already scarce screen space with a button that never gets used.
How about a few context menus? Make some use of that right mouse button. At least a user could experiment to find the 'hidden' features without making reading the documentation absolutely necessary.
It makes the most sense for a dialog to appear when the original start level is deleted.
In this case, the next level created should become the start level.
And if the designer wants to make a different level the start level, he'll just have to delete all levels up to that one :D


[Edited by StuartK on 07-14-2003 at 08:07 PM]
07-14-2003 at 09:01 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts Quote Reply
mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 5059
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
Ok, in build 29 we'll try adding buttons for hold and level delete, making a level the first in a hold, and duplicating a hold. I'm gonna leave off the cut/copy/paste buttons for levels and rooms, because that's just too many buttons! We don't want the editor to start looking like an airplane cockpit. I think this will be a good compromise.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.
07-14-2003 at 11:52 PM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Send Email to User Show all user's posts High Scores This architect's holds Quote Reply
eytanz
Level: Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2708
Registered: 02-05-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
Cool, thanks.

____________________________
I got my avatar back! Yay!
07-15-2003 at 12:04 AM
View Profile Send Private Message to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster
Avatar
Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged
icon Re: Re: Bug: deleting hold start level (0)  
mrimer wrote:
Ok, in build 29 we'll try adding buttons for hold and level delete, making a level the first in a hold, and duplicating a hold. I'm gonna leave off the cut/copy/paste buttons for levels and rooms, because that's just too many buttons! We don't want the editor to start looking like an airplane cockpit. I think this will be a good compromise.
Yeah, I agree. In another release we might split up the screen to give us more room for buttons.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)
07-15-2003 at 01:34 AM
View Profile Send Email to User Show all user's posts This architect's holds Quote Reply
New Topic New Poll Post Reply
Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Bugs : Bug: deleting hold start level
Surf To:


Forum Rules:
Can I post a new topic? No
Can I reply? No
Can I read? Yes
HTML Enabled? No
UBBC Enabled? Yes
Words Filter Enable? No

Contact Us | CaravelGames.com

Powered by: tForum tForumHacks Edition b0.98.8
Originally created by Toan Huynh (Copyright © 2000)
Enhanced by the tForumHacks team and the Caravel team.