Oneiromancer
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During JtRH beta, I decided that I would work on retrofitting Treasure Hunt for JtRH...just in terms of scripts and room styles, add checkpoints on trapdoors when appropriate, and fix any outstanding trivial solutions or other bugs. I did that, and some of the beta testers may remember trying it out. However, I wanted to wait to release it until a while after JtRH was out. So I put it aside for a while.

After a month or so I decided that I wanted to make a "Master Quest" like in the original Zelda games: keep almost the same overall map, but redo all the rooms to be more difficult. Similar to what several people have done on this forum with levels from KDD, for example. At first I was going to release something like Tomb of Nomb DVD Edition, or HIJK, where the original hold would be released alongside the Master Quest levels. However, because of the high score issues, I didn't want to release a duplicate level, or have the old scores deleted. So now I'm just going to release a separate hold with the title you see above.

Every single room with a monster in it should have some new JtRH element, whether it be a pair of Wubbas, some ortho squares, or even the Slayer. Often I replace a serpent with a rattlesnake, or tar with mud, although of course I have tested the rooms for completability. I haven't yet gone through it to make demos, because I was waiting to finish all the rooms, but I do believe that every room is solveable right now.

This hold is Anyone Edit, and there's also a warp room to the later levels located in Tomb Raider 1N. So of course I would appreciate any comments, and I am definitely willing to incorporate any suggestions anyone may have.

The file in this top post will always be the most up-to-date. Version changes will be listed in later replies (so that the thread shows as new).

Enjoy!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-19-2005 03:54 AM]

Alneyan
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Note that I didn't play the original Treasure Hunt much beyond the first few rooms, so I can only infer what the original rooms were like. That being said, here are my comments on the first level:

- Once East: It is possible to kill the four snakes, exit, and then take care of the red doors, which may or may not be intended. I know I found the trap doors to be harder to handle than the snakes, but then I hate trap doors with a passion.

- Thrice East: The Slayer can be used to kill the last bat, so all monsters can be killed without moving around the maze.

- Quarce East: That room is my favourite for now, and plenty of fun with the addition of a Slayer: fencing with two Goblins and a Slayer is just too fun.

- Quince East: The Slayer seems to do very little here, as he can be blocked by dropping both trap doors at the entrance. The two mimics can take care of the "ambushing" eyes (the ones that watch the diagonals and will dash off for the arrows), so Beethro does not need to watch his step around them: once all trap doors are gone, the mimics can trap themselves and kill those two eyes.

It has been very fun for now; now moving onwards to level 2!

Oneiromancer
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Alneyan wrote:
- Once East: It is possible to kill the four snakes, exit, and then take care of the red doors, which may or may not be intended. I know I found the trap doors to be harder to handle than the snakes, but then I hate trap doors with a passion.

Oops, I thought I took care of that. Thanks, I'll fix it. Sorry you hate trapdoors so much...L2, 1S 3W will be a nightmare for you then (especially now).

- Thrice East: The Slayer can be used to kill the last bat, so all monsters can be killed without moving around the maze.

Well, the intended solution is indeed for the Slayer to kill the final wraithwing. Were you able to have him kill it and then exit to the left, making the Slayer not show up so you could go through the maze? Or did you still have to exit to the right? If the latter, then that's okay, since getting past him in the maze is part of the puzzle. If not, I'll add to his script to make him not activate until the red door drops.

- Quarce East: That room is my favourite for now, and plenty of fun with the addition of a Slayer: fencing with two Goblins and a Slayer is just too fun.

Thanks!

- Quince East: The Slayer seems to do very little here, as he can be blocked by dropping both trap doors at the entrance. The two mimics can take care of the "ambushing" eyes (the ones that watch the diagonals and will dash off for the arrows), so Beethro does not need to watch his step around them: once all trap doors are gone, the mimics can trap themselves and kill those two eyes.

Yes, the Slayer is intended to be "stuck" at this point, and he will catch up later. The two mimics taking care of the "ambushing" eyes is the same as it was in the original, and so I left it in. I'm not sure if the addition of the wubbas makes it hard enough that I want to prevent that. If the wubbas aren't too difficult, then I might add a trapdoor where those diagonal eyes come from so that the mimics are forced to go there last.

Thanks for the comments! Level 2 might be better appreciated if you go through the original version first...most of the rooms are more difficult, and finding your way through the "maze" is easier if you know the older version (I didn't change the order of the rooms from the original intended path). But I won't stop you!

I've got almost 3 rooms retrofitted on level 3 now, so hopefully by the end of this weekend I'll have an updated version.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Alneyan
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Oops, I thought I took care of that. Thanks, I'll fix it. Sorry you hate trapdoors so much...L2, 1S 3W will be a nightmare for you then (especially now).

*Whimpers and grovels* Please spare me... How many greckles do you want for a demo? Nay, I should be fine, so long as it's only one room and not nearly as bad as that room on level 15.

Well, the intended solution is indeed for the Slayer to kill the final wraithwing. Were you able to have him kill it and then exit to the left, making the Slayer not show up so you could go through the maze? Or did you still have to exit to the right? If the latter, then that's okay, since getting past him in the maze is part of the puzzle. If not, I'll add to his script to make him not activate until the red door drops.

Well, let me see: I waited next to the entry until the first two wraithwings close in, dispatched them (leaving the entry, so the Slayer dropped by), killed the third wraithwing while retreating, and the Slayer conveniently took care of the last one. I was then on the right of the Slayer, so the Slayer did not bother me during the maze: even if he hadn't been waiting for the wisp to catch me, he was too far behind to be a threat. Of course, perhaps I was simply lucky to have the last wraithwing stand just exactly where it could be killed at once (though I didn't intend it). There doesn't seem to be trap doors on this version however.

I will take on your advice and play the original version first before resuming the newer, nastier and funner (not necessarily in that order) hold.

*Squashes the Typo Fairy out of this post*

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[Last edited by Alneyan at 09-02-2005 04:12 PM]

Oneiromancer
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Alneyan wrote:

Oneiromancer wrote:
Well, the intended solution is indeed for the Slayer to kill the final wraithwing. Were you able to have him kill it and then exit to the left, making the Slayer not show up so you could go through the maze? Or did you still have to exit to the right? If the latter, then that's okay, since getting past him in the maze is part of the puzzle. If not, I'll add to his script to make him not activate until the red door drops.

Well, let me see: I waited next to the entry until the first two wraithwings close in, dispatched them (leaving the entry, so the Slayer dropped by), killed the third wraithwing while retreating, and the Slayer conveniently took care of the last one. I was then on the right of the Slayer, so the Slayer did not bother me during the maze: even if he hadn't been waiting for the wisp to catch me, he was too far behind to be a threat. Of course, perhaps I was simply lucky to have the last wraithwing stand just exactly where it could be killed at once (though I didn't intend it). There doesn't seem to be trap doors on this version however.

Oops...I just realized that this is something that I changed in my home version but haven't uploaded yet. In the version you guys have, the Slayer enters from the room edge. I changed it so that he is present near the end of the maze from the beginning, and so you have to get him to kill a wraithwing and then dodge past him to exit to the right. Sorry for the confusion...I was waiting until I finished retrofitting level 3 before I uploaded the new version.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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The newest version has been uploaded. Changes:

Tomb Raider:

3E: moved Slayer to a character in the maze so he is in your way, and you need to use him to kill the wraithwings. Added a bit of dialogue for him.

Tomb Vault:

1W and 2W: added short Slayer dialogue.

Tomb Escaper:

Revision of all rooms for this level completed and added.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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The revisions for level 4, The Horde, have now been added. I'm very happy with some of the new puzzles, while others are merely okay. (1S 1E of The Horde is, I think, my favorite revision, just because it seems like a unique puzzle to me.) Anyway, if anyone was waiting for the final revisions to be complete before you made any comments, you need wait no longer!

Don't worry about it going up on the Holds board if the replies are slow in coming...at the very least I need to play through it the real way to get victory demos. (This isn't to say I don't believe all the rooms are solveable, because I've played through them all in the editor to be sure, but Murphy's Law always prevails.) And I am sure there are improvements to be made and trivial solutions to be fixed.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Alneyan
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Well, some more comments, now that I am done with the regular hold (well, except those secret rooms and 1N in the Horde, but...)

On level 1: Thrice East is much more satisfying now, and gives a good training on what will follow next (dancing around with the Slayer).

On level 2:
- The Entrance: The level is a bit trickier, though you can still get through those monsters even if you are slow (I beat the level in 1,500 moves, hardly optimal at all). You can avoid the mud babies by rushing to the north, barely making it in time, and start killing them next to the blue door; the same is true on the regular hold, but you didn't have to run away so away back then. It may be unintended, as your hints for that level went along the lines of "you must be somewhat efficient when killing that snake".

- 1N 1E: The first part of the level is rather tricky, and the area between the two zones is nice (fencing in a very small area is always fun). I have found the second area to be very easy however, with all the guards rushing in to their deaths (the goblins were a lot harder, at least for me). The Slayer did not follow me to the second area, so this may explain that.

- 3W: I liked that room, where the Slayer can dedicate all his craft to a noble pursuit: killing serpents. At least, I think the Slayer has to kill the eastern serpent, but I may have been making life harder for me instead.

- 1W 3W: The trap doors were actually decent, and almost enjoyable; the monsters trailing you are the problem. I liked the non-trivial killing of the queen, and will try once more to get through that labyrinth, without running into those Wubbas.

- 1W 2W: I liked that room better than the original: golems as stepping stones just seem so fun (and I have a score to settle with them).

- 1W: The roach puzzle was more interesting with those force squares.

- 2W: The Slayer did not interfere as much as I had feared (hoped?) here, but I guess a Slayer and four Goblins would be a tad bit too much.

Tscott
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Unless I'm missing something once you solve Tomb Vault-1S2W you can't return through that room because there's no longer anything for the mimic to bump against to allow you to guide it to drop all the trap doors.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Oneiromancer
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Tscott wrote:
Unless I'm missing something once you solve Tomb Vault-1S2W you can't return through that room because there's no longer anything for the mimic to bump against to allow you to guide it to drop all the trap doors.

Try moving diagonally a few times with the mimic and see what happens.

(By the way, I didn't realize this at first. Thanks for bringing it up, and leading me to the solution! It affects the solution to 1W as well.)

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-05-2005 06:03 AM]

Oneiromancer
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Alneyan wrote:
On level 2:
- The Entrance: The level is a bit trickier, though you can still get through those monsters even if you are slow (I beat the level in 1,500 moves, hardly optimal at all). You can avoid the mud babies by rushing to the north, barely making it in time, and start killing them next to the blue door; the same is true on the regular hold, but you didn't have to run away so away back then. It may be unintended, as your hints for that level went along the lines of "you must be somewhat efficient when killing that snake".

Hmm, actually, I'm glad there's a slightly easier way of dealing with the rush of mud babies, I was worried that part would be a bit unfair. And I'm not going to change anything in the original hold at this point.

- 1N 1W: The first part of the level is rather tricky, and the area between the two zones is nice (fencing in a very small area is always fun). I have found the second area to be very easy however, with all the guards rushing in to their deaths (the goblins were a lot harder, at least for me). The Slayer did not follow me to the second area, so this may explain that.

Yeah, I kind of like the dichotomy. Actually, there's a pretty easy way to kill the goblins in the second part in the original hold, and I had some trouble with the guards in the second part when I was testing it, so I think the difference is interesting enough.

- 3W: I liked that room, where the Slayer can dedicate all his craft to a noble pursuit: killing serpents. At least, I think the Slayer has to kill the eastern serpent, but I may have been making life harder for me instead.

Yes, the Slayer is meant to take the place of the Wraithwing. Sure, it's possible to kill the serpents with the roaches...or even if you drop the trapdoors and then exit to the South and come back, with the roach queens...although then you'll probably have to exit to the North and then walk all the way around again. But I don't mind having multiple solutions, as long as they're not completely trivial.

- 1S 3W: The trap doors were actually decent, and almost enjoyable; the monsters trailing you are the problem. I liked the non-trivial killing of the queen, and will try once more to get through that labyrinth, without running into those Wubbas.

Hehe, I've had someone else say that this trapdoor room is their favorite one ever. The Wubbas are of course the important difference from the original hold. The non-trivial killing of the queen is what I wanted in the original hold, but again, it's been so long that I won't be changing it.

- 1W: The roach puzzle was more interesting with those force squares.

Actually it's much easier--almost trivial--considering the hint I gave TScott about returning through 1S 2W. I haven't decided what (if anything) to do about this yet...I might try some more to see if it can be solved with ortho squares filling all of the SE chamber.
Edit: since I can't place ortho-squares on the mimic potions, yes, it is still solveable if I fill the other squares back up with ortho-squares.

- 2W: The Slayer did not interfere as much as I had feared (hoped?) here, but I guess a Slayer and four Goblins would be a tad bit too much.

That's a good point, and I've added a door (with an arrow) so that once you hit the orb, the Slayer can join the fun! It's likely that he still won't be fast enough to cause too many problems, and he might even help kill the goblins, but it's still fun. And it helps make the scripting more interesting. I won't release an update until I get more comments, however.

Thanks for the comments!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-05-2005 06:02 AM]

Tscott
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 382
Registered: 02-10-2003
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Try moving diagonally a few times with the mimic and see what happens.

Ah, clever. Well, clever... and annoying.

I'm on to the next level now.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-05-2005 04:19 PM : Fixed bad quote tags]

Tscott
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Solved it all except the secret room on 3.

A few comments:
Tomb Escaper - 1N4W: The rattlesnakes were very touchy get each and every one to where they need to go. Most often two would get stuck in the NE corner, and many attempts I had a least one snake turn and go past the arrow at some point. Otherwise a good room.

Tomb Escaper - 3W: A good room but the mopping up of a full room of mud got tedious towards the end.

The Horde - 1S1E: I would've liked to see a checkpoint somewhere in this room. It would've kept me from having to start from scratch every time I made a miscalculation and lost the last goblin.

Overall, I really liked it- it provided some good improvements, new twists, and variety to an already great hold.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Tscott wrote:
Solved it all except the secret room on 3.

Need any hints? It's essentially the same solution as the original...although I prevented one shortcut which enabled you to kill the serpent early.

Tomb Escaper - 1N5W: The rattlesnakes were very touchy get each and every one to where they need to go. Most often two would get stuck in the NE corner, and many attempts I had a least one snake turn and go past the arrow at some point. Otherwise a good room.

That happened to me once, too, but I was able to cut a rattlesnake down to 2 squares long instead of 3. I think that almost all of the snake traps only need a 2-square long one instead of 3. I thought about putting red doors on every arrow so that it wouldn't be so annoying, but then it might make the room too trivial. I'll try it out...if you want to test on your end too (it's Anyone Edit) that would be great also.

Tomb Escaper - 4W: A good room but the mopping up of a full room of mud got tedious towards the end.

Yes, it does, doesn't it? Hmmm...I guess it takes long enough to get to the mud mothers that it doesn't really add much to have the black door as well. I'll put trapdoors underneath the mud mothers so that you have to get to them before you are able to kill the brains...similar to the original room.

The Horde - 1S1E: I would've liked to see a checkpoint somewhere in this room. It would've kept me from having to start from scratch every time I made a miscalculation and lost the last goblin.

Sure thing.

Overall, I really liked it- it provided some good improvements, new twists, and variety to an already great hold.

Thanks! And thanks for the comments!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-06-2005 01:48 AM]

Tscott
Level: Smiter

Rank Points: 382
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If you've got a hint, sure. I'm stuck at the 1st roach ambush. The fact that rattlesnakes can move on force arrows is proving to be problematic for me here.


____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Tscott wrote:
If you've got a hint, sure. I'm stuck at the 1st roach ambush. The fact that rattlesnakes can move on force arrows is proving to be problematic for me here.

Well, it worked out for me that standing underneath the rightmost arrow with my sword pointing NW, waiting for the rattlesnake to get 2 squares above me, and then stepping West one square made him go through the door. You need to be quick with the eye and forcing the rattlesnake to go where you want him to go, I think, so that he doesn't change directional preference too quickly. (I was in that position on turn 51...although now that I think about it I don't know if you can go any slower without having the rattlesnake come into the bottom part with you anyway.)

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-06-2005 04:06 AM]

Tscott
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I finally got it. Didn't fully understand your explanation until after I solved it. "Oh, that's what he meant..." I was trying to do the same thing by waiting in the 1-square wide hall while the snake heads straight through the door, but you reach the orb a move or two too late that way. Very tricky.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
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"Very tricky" makes it sound like I planned it that way. I merely replaced the serpents with rattlesnakes and observed what happened. I was caught by surprise when the rattlesnake went over the arrows as well (although I should have remembered), but like many other things in this hold, it worked out to be a unique puzzle slightly differently than I expected.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
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Changes in the newest version in the top thread:

Tomb Raider:

3E: added Wait for Clean Room in script so that leaving and coming back doesn't end it. Also added the Slayer to the East entrance to the room.

Tomb Vault:

1W: added more ortho-squares to the SE area, enforcing alternate method of moving mimics around. Also added a checkpoint to the central area for restoring purposes.

2W: added a way for the Slayer to join the fun after the orb is struck.

Tomb Escaper:

4W: removed the black door, put trapdoors underneath the mud mothers.

1N 5W: put red doors underneath the arrow traps, moved a wall or two around in the NE corner.

The Horde:

1S 1E: added 3 checkpoints around the room.

I'm going to be leaving on a trip this Wednesday (9/14), returning the next Sunday. I just finished solving the entire hold in order to get demos for every room, so the hold is essentially finished unless there are any last-minute comments. I might also want to record voices for the hold, but I'm a bit leery of how my Beethro voice will turn out. I'll probably just leave this up while I'm gone and make the final decision when I return.

So if you have any comments, please don't be shy.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-12-2005 07:39 AM]

Oneiromancer
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Newest version is up. Only one small change to Tomb Raider 3E, where I fixed a small bug in my scripting. Since it's been almost 3 weeks, if there are no more comments, I will submit it to the Holds forum tomorrow night. Thanks to TScott and Alneyan for testing.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
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Er. I got carried away tonight, and I made some new secret rooms. They're hard. I've now solved the rooms and recorded demos, so I'm uploading the hold to the Holds forum. The version on this thread will be removed, so please go get the official version if you want to play and/or upload your scores!

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

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[Last edited by Oneiromancer at 09-20-2005 09:03 AM]