MeckMeck GRE
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Here is the first level of confusing hold. However if there will be a second level this will be based on another concept. This level however contains many forks in your road .

Any comments, bugreports and critic welcome about the hold and its concept.

eytanz
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So far, I like the hold and it's concept.

2E (metal) really needs a checkpoint; it's very annoying to solve the first orb puzzle and have to restart because of the second. Even though the second one is a lot easier.

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eytanz
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How do you exit "sword"? I see it's not required, but it seems impossible to drop the green door (even if you somehow get the guard to kill the rattlesnake, which I think is impossible, it's still impossible to kill the guard).

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eytanz
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There's a misspelt word in the entrance to "paper" - "tgis"

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eytanz
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In the "tree" room (3W), when I took the stairs to "nice looking" I exited the hold. Is this intentional?

The same happened when I took the stairs to "steady" from this room.

[Edited by eytanz at Local Time:05-23-2005 at 02:51 AM]

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Tscott
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I pretty much like what little I've seen so far and it's an interesting layout.

But, a checkpoint at any branching stairs would be nice. Right now the few rooms I've seen make backtracking even by the restore screen impossible without solving the previous room again in whole or in part.

And, I've run into two rooms that force me to start over from the beginning due to hitting orbs at the wrong time - the second 'water' room I tried and the second 'air' room (sorry I forgot the names and can't restore to the scrolls without replaying the previous rooms). It was very frustrating to find after I cleared my way to all three orbs through the tar in the water one that I'd made the room unsolvable in hitting the first orb at the very start which closed a door for good that was still covered by tar at the time. Now that I know, I could go back and solve the room but after clearing that much tar, to do it again right away- well, the room's not a great motivator. The puzzle with orbs separated by trapdoors in 'air' gave me similar frustrations, I went about the room, hitting each orb once and was thinking the doors would all drop in the end- only after hitting the last orb did I realized it was a trial and error orb puzzle were you can only hit each orb a limited number of times. This can only lead to frustration IMO.

Apart from these frustrations, I really like the look, theme and layout of the hold. And the puzzles so far are all interesting (when they're fair).

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

Tscott
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I think I got real unlucky with the first few rooms I tried. "Storm" and "River" are the two I was talking about in the previous post and I haven't come across any more that have the problem of those. I went back and solved river and played several more rooms. I really like what I'm seeing - though my complaint of a lack of checkpoints still stands. In fact, there should be at least one in every room with this sort of layout IMO. It's so annoying to have to replay rooms if you choose to backtrack through the restore screen.

Also, going from the room "Mighty" to "Good Looking" also ended the hold.

____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

MeckMeck GRE
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Thanks for the feedback !

Update !!!!

==> Fixed all "Eytan Bugs"
==> Fixed the Mighty => Nice looking Bug
==> Added Checkpoints to every staircase if no other was close enough till now.

Tip : Click the orbs, so its no trial and error.



[Edited by MeckMeck GRE at Local Time:05-23-2005 at 09:12 AM]

Blondbeard
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Alright... sory, but I´m just not in the mood to go back and check the names of all the rooms, but I found this level to be quite nice. (I have just explored 30% of the level, but I conquerd it).

I´m going to give the rooms I played some overall ranking (I hope that is useful) and some comments.

I liked the trapdoorpuzzles 1W and 2W. They both get a seven. 2W1S was a little bit too easy. You didn´t force me to think. Therefore my rank for that room is a six.
2N1W was boring and timeconsuming I give it a three. Please put out more checkpoints, and make them visible! 2N2W was quite neat, and I give it a five. I really think you should make the checkpoint vissible when you enter the room.
3E was in my opinion a nice little setup. Not hard, not timeconsuming, just a little amusing. I give it a six. 1N3E gets a five. I don´t see the point in having to open a black door. it´s just timeconsuming, and a checkpoint would be nice (this is the room where I completed the hold). And finaly 1S gets a five. I really don´t think mud is the funniest game element.

MeckMeck GRE
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Blondbeard wrote:
Alright... sory, but I´m just not in the mood to go back and check the names of all the rooms, but I found this level to be quite nice. (I have just explored 30% of the level, but I conquerd it).

I´m going to give the rooms I played some overall ranking (I hope that is useful) and some comments.

I liked the trapdoorpuzzles 1W and 2W. They both get a seven. 2W1S was a little bit too easy. You didn´t force me to think. Therefore my rank for that room is a six.
2N1W was boring and timeconsuming I give it a three. Please put out more checkpoints, and make them visible! 2N2W was quite neat, and I give it a five. I really think you should make the checkpoint vissible when you enter the room.
3E was in my opinion a nice little setup. Not hard, not timeconsuming, just a little amusing. I give it a six. 1N3E gets a five. I don´t see the point in having to open a black door. it´s just timeconsuming, and a checkpoint would be nice (this is the room where I completed the hold). And finaly 1S gets a five. I really don´t think mud is the funniest game element.

Thanks for those commends ! Therefore : Update !!!!

==> 2W1S is now a little harder
==> 2N1W got two secured checkpoints
==> 2N3W´s checkpoints are visible and secured
==> 1N3E : No black door any more, but I want to keep the brain till the end (Have it really finished the hold at once or did you get to another room first ? If not you had an outdated version)
==> 1S : You dont like mud ? Well, sorry the room will still contain mud. But for you : A blob of tar in the middle muhahaha !

Blondbeard
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:

==> 1S : You dont like mud ? Well, sorry the room will still contain mud. But for you : A blob of tar in the middle muhahaha !

Ha! That makes me feel much better!

Hmm. Strange about 1N3E. I downloaded the newest version there was. Your first update. Well... you might want to check that out. I suppose I have to play the rest 70% as well. Maby later today.

eytanz
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A few more comments:

In 1N (water), it would be helpful if you made the checkpoint visible when the room starts. There's no way to get there before a respawn so it won't affect gameplay, but at the moment it's quite possible to miss the checkpoint by accident.

From 1N2W (hurricane), the "cows" exits leaves the hold.

Oh, and these are from the most current update (two posts above). Since you are releasing updates relatively frequently, by the way, it would help if you gave them numbers so we can easily identify them when posting.

[Edited by eytanz at Local Time:05-23-2005 at 01:45 PM]

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MeckMeck GRE
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Update 3 !!!!

Fixed posts mentioned in the bug above.

eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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Ok, I just solved the hold by going down the correct stairways, but I'm not sure I did it the way you intended:



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eytanz
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In Fuel (1S2E) you may want to make the characters look like characters; at the moment it looks like the room is impossible (though it isn't). Also, maybe give a hint to the time limit.

Also, fuel doesn't have scrolls next to its stairs.

[Edited by eytanz at Local Time:05-23-2005 at 03:26 PM]

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MeckMeck GRE
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Okay... the scrolls are now there, even if the two ways were described in the level description. I also dropped a hint-scroll. I dont understand your first post (the secr4et text... of course you can access any of the element rooms and conquer them). However I placed force arrows.

eytanz
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The point of my secret post was that it wasn't necessary to leave through the stairs of any element room except air. I just came back the way I came, making the level much shorter.

The arrows fixed this.

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Blondbeard
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I solved the hold using another route. Going west. A less funny route. 1W was kind of neat. I would give it a five out of ten. 2E had an ok orbpuzzle, but why did you have roachqueens on both sides. It makes the end part of the room (once you have solved the orb puzzle) kind of repetetive.
Is 1S3E really possible? I mean... how do you kill the rattlesnake?
1S1E gets a four. It was easy but timeconsuming. 2S1E was quite fun I give it a six. 3W was a bit too easy without having any cool setup. It´s pretty pointless to just rush in to a room and solve it without having to think. Nevertheless I give it a five.
1N3W: Blurk! That´s quite a lot of tar and mud to clear out! Not hard, but oh so timeconsuming. I give it a three. 1N1E also have too much tar and mud. I give it a four.
2N2W gets a six. I liked the setup, but what gouverns the opening of the doors? I couldn´t figure out why the guy by the orbs opened the doors when he did. Also... why should you do this room? it´s not requiered and there´s nothing to stop you from walking the stairs the instant you enter the room. Maybe you should add some green doors?

Overall I think the mud and tar puzzles tend to be timeconsuming without ever being chalanging. Oh, and do add checkpoints in front of all stairs. Makes it easyer to change path if you would like to.

Tscott
Level: Smiter

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MeckMeck GRE wrote:
Tip : Click the orbs, so its no trial and error.

I guess I'm old fashioned- I tend to go into orb puzzles blindly and see what each one does by trail and error. There's another orb puzzle I found in your hold, 2E -where you start by 4 eyes and an orb in the center of the room. It was soon apparent that I shouldn't have hit that center orb first, but I didn't have to redo much of the room on restarting, so it wasn't a problem for me. On the other hand, by the time I found my mistake on the other two rooms I mentioned I had already cleared out 75% of tar in the room, or 75% of the trapdoors, and it was very frustrating to need restart back at the beginning on those rooms. Just something to keep in mind.


____________________________
And I can recall our caravel: a little wicker beetle shell with four fine maste and lateen sails,
its bearings on Cair Paravel. O my love, O it was a funny little thing to be the ones to've seen.
-Joanna Newsom "Bridges and Balloons"

MeckMeck GRE
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 594
Registered: 01-03-2005
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Thanks for the comments... wait for another update !

Blondbeard wrote:
I solved the hold using another route. Going west. A less funny route. 1W was kind of neat. I would give it a five out of ten. 2E had an ok orbpuzzle, but why did you have roachqueens on both sides. It makes the end part of the room (once you have solved the orb puzzle) kind of repetetive.
Is 1S3E really possible? I mean... how do you kill the rattlesnake?

==> You can kill a rattlesnake by stabbing its rattle again and agian... erhmmm... you maybe had also an old version

1S1E gets a four. It was easy but timeconsuming.

==> Might be a little rebuild in the next update

2S1E was quite fun I give it a six.

3W was a bit too easy without having any cool setup. It´s pretty pointless to just rush in to a room and solve it without having to think. Nevertheless I give it a five.

==> Will not be changed

1N3W: Blurk! That´s quite a lot of tar and mud to clear out! Not hard, but oh so timeconsuming. I give it a three.

==> Might be a little rebuild or replaced in the next update

1N1E also have too much tar and mud. I give it a four.

==> There will be less tar/mud in the next update

2N2W gets a six. I liked the setup, but what gouverns the opening of the doors? I couldn´t figure out why the guy by the orbs opened the doors when he did.

==> The concept will not change. However the first opened door will be triggerd by the player in the next version

Also... why should you do this room? it´s not requiered and there´s nothing to stop you from walking the stairs the instant you enter the room. Maybe you should add some green doors?

==> This was fixed in the update above

Overall I think the mud and tar puzzles tend to be timeconsuming without ever being chalanging. Oh, and do add checkpoints in front of all stairs. Makes it easyer to change path if you would like to.


==> This was fixed in an update long ago

Hatlore
Level: Delver
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I would like to note that holds that force you to make choices rather than allowing you to complete every room at your own pace are moderately irritating. Short of restoring, how are you supposed to get back from "On a river" and select another puzzle? Instead of putting each of the puzzles on a different floor, perhaps you could find a way to keep them on the same one. Being forced to choose a path and locking out the choices not selected bothers me.

eytanz
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Technically they are on the same floor. But I disagree with you - or more accurately, I agree in principle that open-choice holds are better, but there is room also for holds that are more linear (or in this case, more maze-like but with no backtracking), and I think this is an excellent case of one.

I think changing this hold to allow more open access would diminish it.

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MeckMeck GRE
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File: Confusing Hold.hold (19.4 KB)
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Update !!!!

1N1E : About 20% less tar
1S1E : A little rebuid....
2N2W : Green Door
3W : You can now trap some serpents.