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ErikH2000
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My apologies to the beta testers for recycling a post I made some months ago. This has a few updated parts in it, but is basically the same. I'm a corner-cutter--yes, I am! For the rest of you guys that don't know what I'm talking about, it doesn't matter. Just read on!

Right Place, Right Time

I want DROD.net/CaravelNet to be some kind of legendary breeding ground for puzzle-making genius! We are already generating community activity here that has surpassed what other popular and classic puzzle games have done. People take hold authoring seriously. Other very good puzzle games with larger numbers of players don't have this respect and energy for extending the game. We've got people writing articles about how to make good holds. We've got a peer review and rating process. We've got enthusiastic participation in hold creation contests. This is a wonderful environment and I'm very proud of it.

Things will only get better. JtRH right now, without even talking about future features, has so much more potential for storytelling than AE did. We've enlarged the canon and exposed more of it with the story presented in JtRH. It's easier to add to the Eighth lore when you have better-defined characters and more material to draw from. The scripting features in the editor are a powerful new tool for creating holds that follow a story.

There are also going to be many different types of puzzles with all the new elements. I am surprised that people have been able to squeeze so much blood out of that rock we gave them. When I finished KDD, I was exhausted of puzzle ideas, but after years of exploration, the hold authors somehow keep finding more. Haven't made an exact count, but I think we've about tripled the number of game elements with JtRH, and the design techniques will have grown by an even larger amount because the possible element combinations suggest many new things that can be done. So for puzzle ideas, it will be a long time before people come up dry, and we'll likely have released even more new elements into the creative pot before that happens.

If you aren't impressed enough yet by the possibilities, I have to remind you of the new CaravelNet features. We will have the instant gratification of downloading new holds in-game, watching demos of people playing your holds minutes after you release them, high scores and progress stored on-line, and the ability to show only explored rooms to players in the hints and solutions browser. These are fantastic features that will make hold creation exciting. I'm anticipating a "completionist" mentality in some people where they will feel the need to finish every released hold so they can keep their online achievements perfect.

I think everything is in place to take one step further. We're going to say that there is potential for greatness in authoring holds. Authoring can be a casual puttering around type of thing, sure, but there is also a level above that where one gets serious about the craft and makes something special. For these creations, we will have the Smitemaster's Selection.

Smitemaster's Selection

It's kind of like a quarterly magazine. We would have a "Fall 2005 Smitemaster's Selection", "Winter 2005 Smitemaster's Selection", etc. Each "issue" releases one or more official holds to CaravelNet users. They appear on the downloadable list of holds in the game. They are also announced by news ticker on the title screen, on the mailing list, and, of course, on the forum. A Smitemaster's Selection hold will be of the same or better quality as Journey to Rooted Hold or King Dugan's Dungeon. It will adhere to the story canon and perhaps add to it. The puzzles will be tested. The writing will be reviewed. It is possible that we will contribute new art or speech audio to the hold (I don't know yet--that depends on some unknowns).

Ulterior Motive

The Selections are exclusive to CaravelNet users, or in other words, people who have purchased the registered part of Journey to Rooted Hold. I should explain straight away how this benefits Caravel, so you don't think I'm being sneaky.

You guys know that we are releasing the complete engine for free along with its source code. This is a terrible move for shareware marketing. It would be much better if we could limit what went into the demo in some obvious ways like removing the ability to create or play user-made holds. That would be a straightforward way to create incentive for registering, but it is not available to us because the project began from open source contributions that must be respected. So our "trick" has been to sell the media instead of the engine. Media includes bitmaps, music, speech, story, and holds. We want to have as much value in the media pile as we can. It is how we get past our handicap of open source generosity.

So we would benefit greatly from having the very best holds for sale in a package along with Journey to Rooted Hold. I will never try to prevent people from releasing free holds, but I do have an interest in convincing some authors to make their holds CaravelNet-exclusive. I'm not going to put pressure or some kind of guilt trip on people who release free holds--that is valuable too and it'd be crummy to discourage it. The idea I am aiming for is that people will perceive that the best DROD-playing experience can be had by joining CaravelNet (buying JtRH) and getting Smitemaster's Selection.

The Gift Basket

There has to be a reason for authors to submit holds for exclusive use in Smitemaster's Selection. I figure that different people are motivated by different things, so I plan to hand out a "gift basket" to authors whose work we decide to publish. One or two items might sparkle and catch your eye, and if you aren't keen on the bath salts or don't like coffeecakes, the package as a whole may still entice. So in the basket we have several items of both concrete and intangible varieties:

* Fifty American Dollars - This is a semi-professional rate similar to what you'd receive for getting a story published in a genre fiction magazine. It is not a realistic compensation for your time compared to other activities that could earn your rent, but it is a token of respect that shows we take our relationship with you seriously.

* About the Author Page - Besides the ego boost, it helps the community to have some "big names" in hold authoring. And actually, to some extent we are already have them. If Clayton, Agaricus5, Bibelot, or other people released a new hold, I'm sure ears would perk. With a few years of history behind us, it's probably about time to have a nice little page that says a bit about what holds people have released, what they are currently working on, their authoring styles, some personal info like how old, where they live, etc. A photo if they aren't too shy. You know--an author page.

* The author's work is considered official and is integrated into the canon. This puts a little more weight behind your release. Players who are particularly interested in story developments will not want to miss your hold.

* Authors will be given access to the official story canon. There is actually a growing amount of material that is stashed away in a secret place. We created it near the beginning of JtRH to help keep our writing consistent with the burgeoning Eighth reality and not lose track of our good ideas.

* Work experience releasing a software product - If you think you would like to pursue a career in the gaming industry, this isn't a bad entry on a resume applying for something entry-level like tester or level designer. There is a miniature product life cycle to follow here with a couple of quality assurance tests to get through. By the way, anyone who wants to add their experience on Caravel projects to a resume, just ask me and I will help you write something up.

* Certificate of Appreciation - You will be mailed an Eighth-style certificate thanking you for your help. My wife has a stationery business and she is master of all things paper. It will look very nice on your wall!

Submission Process

This process is going to be refined and detailed later, but I want to give you the gist. First your hold must be accepted, which means Caravel has seen your hold and will work with you to get it ready to be published.

The requirements for being accepted:

* You must be the author of at least one hold that was rated 8 or higher at least a month after release. This does a few things: 1. encourages holds to be made publicly available and discussed, which is healthy for the community, and 2. cuts down on the amount of time Caravel team spends reviewing submissions, which in my mind, threatens to be substantial.

* Hold must not have been publicly released. If at any time before, during, or after development you release your hold, then we can't publish that hold as a Smitemaster's Selection. We only want to publish holds that are new and exclusive.

* Hold should be complete and tested. You should distribute your hold to private testers to avoid problems like trivial solutions or rooms that aren't fun to play. We might create a directory of private testers at some point for this purpose.

* Hold must include a full set of victory demos that work.

* For more ambitious stories, you may wish to wait on writing all of the story content into the hold until after it is accepted and you can work with Caravel on it. In this case, a summary of the story events should be submitted with the hold that we can review.

After we've accepted your hold, then we have a few more hoops to jump through:

* You have to make story and quality fixes as described by the Caravel team. For example, you might describe a character doing something that conflicts with a future story event you had no way of knowing about. Or we might decide that your use of scenery has cosmetic problems.

* You would sign a publishing rights agreement with Caravel. It states, besides obvious things like "Caravel will pay $x for y", that the hold will be exclusively published by Caravel. It will be our intent to only make the hold available to CaravelNet users.

Then you'd get the gift basket and we'd publish your fine hold in some issue of Smitemaster's Selection.

Last Dose of Grandiosity

It's not like I'm betting it all for some crazy leap into greatness here, because I'm going to be plenty happy with modest results. But I think we have a chance to make a unique impact on the genre of contemplative puzzle games. The key is that we take authorship seriously and provide incentives for our users to create works of art. Another thing to consider is that we are laying a framework for additional games to add to the Caravel collection, and the same approach we use for DROD authorship will translate to other games. In the future, I would like CaravelNet to be the very best place to be if you are a fan of contemplative puzzle games, and if you are an author published here, I want it to mean something.

-Erik

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04-16-2005 at 12:23 AM
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schep
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First off, this announcement is outstanding news, at least as a player who already has CaravelNet access. Seems like good news for authors too.

But also,
ErikH2000 wrote:
You guys know that we are releasing the complete engine for free along with its source code.
Aha. Now, I've already seen and been involved in a handful of discussions on the forum about the difficulties of program-by-clicking. If nobody else beats me to it (note I do have another life as a student, a life I've been neglecting a bit too much this month), and assuming the developers have no issues with the idea, then I will use the source to create a tool for managing character scripts outside the JtRH editor. Sure, most architects wouldn't have much use for it, but I think it would be nice to have more convenient capability in that area.

Back to the topic, I don't think I would go for Smitemaster's Selection authorship myself. I'm more interested in stretching the limits of what's been done than coming up with original puzzles. If I do produce a polished hold, it will be more of a niche thing and quite unlike the majority of the holds. But kudos to the great puzzlecrafters among us!

04-16-2005 at 01:02 AM
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techant
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This is a great concept, it continues to provide a forum for those who develop simpler holds (those who enjoy the challenge of puzzle making) as well as it creates motivation for those who what to build really complex holds with real storylines, music and artwork.

I was worried that CaravelNet might not be profitable, but I see now that this new concept could really change the way things are done for gamers online. :D

Its got me thinking of a female roachslayer :rolleyes

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04-16-2005 at 02:58 AM
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BigRedCat
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The idea on paper sounds good, and the motivation and thought process is sound, but could this lead to a -very- slow trickle of releases? Say the majority of hold makers just decide to keep their work a secret in hopes they get chosen, and in actuality most of them -don't-, and are discouraged? Anyway, I guess this community is small enough that it should be alright either way.
04-16-2005 at 05:50 AM
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Mattcrampy
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Well, you already need to have released a high-rated hold, and even if you're accepted, only those who have CaravelNet will play it. Something like The Fool's Errand wouldn't work as a Smitemaster's Selection.

Matt

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04-16-2005 at 09:13 AM
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MeckMeck GRE
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At first : Thats a nice idea to encourage authors like
agaricus or eytanz and few other, nothing for me (yet). But somehow :

I think that a rate of >8 within one moth is :?.

First : New Members are discouraged. They have at first to work for a hold like that (2-12 months work !!!) and then have luck that its rated fast enough by the community.

Second : If the rates (even if only 10s and 9s) comeing 5 days to late he can start doing a new (again 2-12 months work).

Third : If he finally has done one (or two) perfect holds he has to do a new for Caravell.

It might be better if those Caravel testers just look if that hold is good enough or not. People like Agaricus made a 9.4 with their first hold.

For the demos :

I hope the demos of the "Caravel Beta Testers" also count. Else you also have be a perfect player.

And for some other reason :

Do you need to be 18 or 21 for sign up in that contest ? :huh
04-16-2005 at 10:32 AM
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agaricus5
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:
I think that a rate of >8 within one moth is :?.

First : New Members are discouraged. They have at first to work for a hold like that (2-12 months work !!!) and then have luck that its rated fast enough by the community.

Second : If the rates (even if only 10s and 9s) comeing 5 days to late he can start doing a new (again 2-12 months work).

Third : If he finally has done one (or two) perfect holds he has to do a new for Caravell.
Smitemasters' Selection is a semi-commercial product scheme. You are technically being paid to build holds for Caravel, so it would be reasonable to expect there to be some sort of limit on what is eligible; you can't just have any hold submitted and expect it to be accepted. To build a good hold takes a lot of skill and effort; you can't just magically get one from thin air.

It might be better if those Caravel testers just look if that hold is good enough or not. People like Agaricus made a 9.4 with their first hold.
That's the whole point of the rating system. You get hold players to rate the hold and so say what they think of it. In this way, you get an overall average opinion that's more accurate than that of just a few players, who may be biased towards or against your hold for whatever reason.

For the demos :

I hope the demos of the "Caravel Beta Testers" also count. Else you also have be a perfect player.
What's the point of making a room you can't play? You need to have tested it yourself; otherwise you wouldn't know whether it's a fun hold to play or not.

And for some other reason :

Do you need to be 18 or 21 for sign up in that contest ? :huh
It's not a contest; it's a way to contribute to Caravel in a more business-like fashion, and get a likewise return for it. I don't think there is an age restriction; Erik's a pretty nice person, so I don't think selling him your work is going to be dangerous or anything like that.

[Edited by agaricus5 at Local Time:04-16-2005 at 06:04 PM]

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04-16-2005 at 12:10 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Agaricus : I agree that the opinion of the players are the most important. But why that 1 month limit ? Why dont say if you have a hold with 8.0 or higher and that with 4 or more votes ?
04-16-2005 at 01:39 PM
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Krishh
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At least a month, not exactly a month. So if your hold gets an 8 3 months after you publish it it still counts.
04-16-2005 at 02:01 PM
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agaricus5
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:
Agaricus : I agree that the opinion of the players are the most important. But why that 1 month limit ? Why dont say if you have a hold with 8.0 or higher and that with 4 or more votes ?
Actually, I'd say both a 1 month time limit and 5-10 vote limit are necessary.

The time limit would be important so the general public have enough time to play the hold and vote on it (your beta testers may vote more highly for it when released, so this isn't really fair). The vote limit would be important as well, since you could just ask someone to vote "8-10" for a hold, and if it's the only vote there, then you get a rather biased representation of the hold.

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04-16-2005 at 02:33 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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Krishh wrote:
At least a month, not exactly a month. So if your hold gets an 8 3 months after you publish it it still counts.

Thank you ! ;-) Now I got it ! I thought it means under 1 month. Maybe I should learn more English.

This is of course good so nobody can cheat with another account or like agaricus said make one vote a eight 8

[Edited by MeckMeck GRE at Local Time:04-16-2005 at 02:38 PM: Spelling ]
04-16-2005 at 02:36 PM
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you'll want to learn more english to get your ratings higher, yes.

--

Erik: no mod points in the gift basket? I'm shocked.


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04-16-2005 at 05:13 PM
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SbCl3
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Well how interesting.

Though I have to say i'm against this. As much as I'd want to bring more money to the developers, If I made a hold superior to all yours (it will never happen, this is theoretical), i'd still make it free to the public. I'm a big fan of linux/open source and i'm going to do anything in my power to help it rise.
04-16-2005 at 05:47 PM
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ErikH2000
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BigRedCat wrote:
The idea on paper sounds good, and the motivation and thought process is sound, but could this lead to a -very- slow trickle of releases? Say the majority of hold makers just decide to keep their work a secret in hopes they get chosen, and in actuality most of them -don't-, and are discouraged? Anyway, I guess this community is small enough that it should be alright either way.
It's another one of our social experiments. It could play out different ways--maybe like how you say. We'll just have to wait and see how it goes!

-Erik

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04-16-2005 at 05:52 PM
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And how does one submit a hold for evaluation?
04-16-2005 at 05:56 PM
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ErikH2000
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MeckMeck GRE wrote:
Agaricus : I agree that the opinion of the players are the most important. But why that 1 month limit ? Why dont say if you have a hold with 8.0 or higher and that with 4 or more votes ?
MeckMeck, I think you are right that a vote count is a better criteria than time limit, since as Agaricus pointed out the idea is to not have rating skewed by initial votes. I think I'd set it at 10 votes right now instead of 4 though.

Agaricus represented my view pretty well with his reply to you. You are pretty close to having a hold with an 8+ rating, by the way. Maybe your next hold can pull it off!

-Erik

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04-16-2005 at 05:58 PM
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ErikH2000
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silver wrote:
Erik: no mod points in the gift basket? I'm shocked.
Okay, I can put some rank points in. :)

-Erik

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04-16-2005 at 06:00 PM
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ErikH2000
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SbCl3 wrote:
Though I have to say i'm against this. As much as I'd want to bring more money to the developers, If I made a hold superior to all yours (it will never happen, this is theoretical), i'd still make it free to the public. I'm a big fan of linux/open source and i'm going to do anything in my power to help it rise.
If you want to release holds this way, and many people will, there is no problem with that. You'll never hear me pressuring you to submit your hold to CaravelNet. And if anybody else was making noise like that, I'd say they were wrong.

-Erik

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04-16-2005 at 06:06 PM
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ErikH2000
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larrymurk wrote:
And how does one submit a hold for evaluation?
That's to be determined along with some other details.

-Erik

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04-16-2005 at 06:07 PM
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What about small group projects? Could I collaborate with another top-notch architect to create a S.S.? I've already got some story stuff outlined, and a handful of puzzles already made, but I'm having trouble with my actual writing, plus intertwining the game with the story. Oh dear Jeebus I need help! ;)
04-17-2005 at 02:44 AM
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ClaytonW wrote:
What about small group projects? Could I collaborate with another top-notch architect to create a S.S.? I've already got some story stuff outlined, and a handful of puzzles already made, but I'm having trouble with my actual writing, plus intertwining the game with the story. Oh dear Jeebus I need help! ;)
I'm kind of in the opposite boat. I've got a whole bunch of story ideas and scripts all made out, but I completly suck at puzzles. Maybe when I finish JtRH I'll get some inspiration.

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04-17-2005 at 03:30 PM
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Maybe when I finish JtRH I'll get some inspiration.

It was quite the opposite for me. I tried to create a hold after finishing KDD, but couldn't. And now when I don't have JtRH, I created a nice little hold for JtRH. When I tried to create them beforehand, I just always had a feeling that the room I created is just like room X from KDD, just not as good. Now I don't have anything to compare to (on rooms with JtRH elements), so I'm easier on myself. So it's all Eriks foult for creating such good rooms. :P
04-17-2005 at 04:26 PM
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ErikH2000
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ClaytonW wrote:
What about small group projects? Could I collaborate with another top-notch architect to create a S.S.? I've already got some story stuff outlined, and a handful of puzzles already made, but I'm having trouble with my actual writing, plus intertwining the game with the story. Oh dear Jeebus I need help! ;)
I would love to see some small teams form and collaborate. We can do a few things with the gift basket to spread more wealth around, although groups will have to figure out the best way to split that fifty bucks amongst themselves.

-Erik

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04-17-2005 at 08:29 PM
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yyw
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Could a "demo" of a hold be published as a way to qualify, and then send in the complete hold?
04-18-2005 at 07:16 AM
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MeckMeck GRE
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yyw wrote:
Could a "demo" of a hold be published as a way to qualify, and then send in the complete hold?

However this is a nice idea to defeat the "Authors-with-no-hold-over-eight-are-discouraged-because-they-have-to-to-2-holds-EFFECT"
(Nice word)
04-18-2005 at 12:48 PM
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icon Re: Smitemaster's Selection II (+2)  
MeckMeck, yyw, and others -

The Smitermaster's Selection is not intended to be some sort of contest for authors, and it's not intended to be there to encourage people to publish holds. At the moment the rate of hold publication is incredibly high, anyway. It's only 4 holds a year, after all. At this rate, even if Erik said that only people who have an 8-ranked hold right now will count, and no one new will be considered, it will be over 4 years before we run out of authors.

What the Smitemaster Selection is for is to improve the value of Caravelnet. It's there to ensure that when people sign up they get good content, year-round. This is about the players, not about the authors. The authors are incidental to the system.

Anyone who sets it as their goal "I'm going to write a smitemaster's selection hold" and tries to find the best way to go around doing that deserves to fail. The kind of author who should be writing these holds is the kind of author for whom "I have to write 2 whole holds instead of one" isn't a problem, but rather it's a good thing, because that means you get to have twice as much fun writing holds. Smitemaster selection holds will be best if they are holds that would have been written anyway, except a bit more polished.

If you make holds, make them because you love making them. Don't think of Smitermaster's selection at all, except as a way to get fun holds to play every 3 months. If you're first hold ends up with a good score, and you have an idea for a second one, you should submit to the selection, but only, as I mention above, if you plan on making the hold even if it doesn't get accepted.

Remember, the requirements are just necessary requirements, not sufficient requirements. Beyond everything else, Erik and Mike have to choose which of the eligable submissions actually gets to be a smitemaster's hold. And I'm pretty sure that anyone who seems like they just want to write a smitemaster's selection hold for bragging rights and are looking for loopholes on the way to get there will never be the most attractive candidate.

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04-18-2005 at 01:51 PM
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MeckMeck GRE
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icon Re: Smitemaster's Selection II (0)  
Ok Eytanz you are fairly right ! More excercise and skill of the architect means more fun/quality for the player.

The average rate of Holds per month is about 4,5 I think.

The Smitemaster selection... will this be one hold or a bunch of two or three ?
04-18-2005 at 02:37 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Smitemaster's Selection II (0)  
MeckMeck GRE wrote:
The Smitemaster selection... will this be one hold or a bunch of two or three ?
It is possible that we'd release more than one hold in each season if we have many submissions. That would be great, in fact. But initially, our modest aim is to release just one per season.

-Erik

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04-18-2005 at 08:20 PM
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yyw
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icon Re: Smitemaster's Selection II (0)  
From what Erik said, it seems that he is trying to encourage submissions. From what Eytan said, it seems that Erik is not. My question was based on the assumption that Erik wants more submissions. It's asking about the unpublished rule.

I understand Eytan's side. What does Erik say?

--yyw


[Edited by yyw at Local Time:04-18-2005 at 09:19 PM]
04-18-2005 at 09:18 PM
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ErikH2000
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icon Re: Smitemaster's Selection II (+1)  
yyw wrote:
From what Erik said, it seems that he is trying to encourage submissions. From what Eytan said, it seems that Erik is not. My question was based on the assumption that Erik wants more submissions. It's asking about the unpublished rule.

I understand Eytan's side. What does Erik say?
Well, it's not quite as simple as just one or the other. There are multiple goals and some of them even conflict with each other.

Goals:
- non-CaravelNet holds released so the community doesn't stagnate.
- CaravelNet-exclusive holds released so our product has good value and incentives to purchase.
- Avoid "have" and "have-not" friction in community.
- Promote a higher standard in hold quality and opportunities for professional resources to be included in user-submitted holds.
- Caravel team is not bogged down reviewing submitted holds.

There is a balance to find and this will be our first attempt at finding it. If I said, "we only want to promote CaravelNet-exclusive holds" that would be a mistake. If I said, "we don't want any CaravelNet-exclusive holds" that would be a mistake at the opposite end.

An important point is that at no time do I ask anybody to share Caravel's goals. If someone feels strongly that their hold should not be released on CaravelNet, we will support him. There is plenty of room for people to participate in whatever way seems best to them.

-Erik

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04-18-2005 at 09:33 PM
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