enzi666
Level: Master Delver

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Hey!

After passing lvl 14 I wonder what you are thinking.

2N2W and 1N1W was much more difficult than the old tar version.

Spoiler(Secretroom)


cu
Enzi

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MasterGiga
Level: Delver
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I once asked myself this, tar or mud? Well, it probably depends on the scenario. When it comes to simply taking out the mother, centered in a large mass, I'd have to say Mud is horrible. It requires a lot of efficient moves, especially when you're watching your back for other nasties.

There might be times where Tar is worst, but I really can't think of one right this moment, besides clearing out tar to open the black gates. That's bad when you end up with unpenetrable shapes like that ugly round puddle of tar...

Overall, I say its Mud.

[Edited by MasterGiga at Local Time:04-19-2005 at 04:31 AM]

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eytanz
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I think it depends on the presence of a mother.

Without a mother, tar is a lot harder - Tar can easily become unremovable. It is very difficult to end up with unremovable mud (all the corners need to be inaccessible). Also, there's an efficient and safe way to get rid of mud (go around the edges). There's no entirely safe equivalent way of getting rid of tar, static or not.

With a mother, it sort of depends on the layout - mud is easier in narrow areas, but tar is easier in open areas.

So overall, I'll say tar is slightly worse.

Remember that, being on the dev team, I've been playing with mud for over a year now, too. For most players, mud is very new but tar is very familiar. So subjectively, mud may be worse for players because of that difference.



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Doom
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I'd say that mud is overall easier. Level 14 in JtRH was definitely easier than L8 in KDD because the rooms weren't specifically intended to work with mud.



About that secret room:


One thing that makes it easier is that you can often clear it completely except if there are walls around.

[Edited by Doom at Local Time:04-11-2005 at 12:55 PM]

stigant
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I think, over all tar, is more difficult. With mud, there tend to be a lot less babies than with tar. The only problem with mud, as stated before is that you have to work your way to the mother at the center of a mass gradually rather than going straight for her. And related to that, you can't bury yourself in mud as easily to escape other enemies. However, clearing mud tends to go a lot more quickly since you don't have to deal with the babies as much.

Here's a question though: With tar, its possible to turn a clearable section into an unclearable section. For example, if you cut down the middle of a 2x5 blob (rather than cutting it at the ends), you'll create 2 2x2 blobs which are now unclearable. Is it possible with mud to start with a clearable blob, and end up with an unclearable blob? (without the presence of a mother).

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silver
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only if there's walls blocking some of the mud. as long as you can reach the corners, you can always clear mud


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Rabscuttle
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I prefer mud to tar but tar mothers to mud mothers.

If you're trying to completely clear mud, I don't think a mud mother ever helps. If mud is impossible to clear, then expanding it won't ever help. I think.

Without a mother, I don't think it's possible to turn clearable mud into unclearable mud.

The_Red_Hawk
Level: Smitemaster
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Make it so the corners will grow out of reach.

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enzi666
Level: Master Delver

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hehe, quickly look at the stats.
10 for tar
3 for mud
total votes...14

muhahahah

btw, very good replies.
the best answer is that it's easier because the rooms weren't designed for mud. Perfectly right.
I'm still on lvl 15 so I can't say if there are harder mud rooms. But I guess there will be some.

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Fafnir
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Yup - there are some truly evil ones later in the game! Tar is quite difficult in some cases (I liked the optional slayer room on level 22), and you have to deal with babies spawning if a mother is around, but thanks to the undo feature that's no longer so much of a big issue. Mud, on the other hand, is easy without a mother, but with a mother it becomes pure evil. It's extremely easy to become trapped, and extremely difficult to get at the mother - moreso if there's a time limit or there are brained monsters in the room.

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bradwall
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I couldn't vote on this one. It seems (in my opinion) that it depends on the situation that you are in. At times, mud can be extremely difficult while the tar is easy.
I feel it depends on the room that you are playing.

MasterGiga
Level: Delver
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Fafnir wrote:
(I liked the optional slayer room on level 22)

I'm currently taking a break from L24 and trying L22,which I skipped. I'm in that room with the slayer and he's causing trouble with the tar section shaped like an "I". Its so bothersome to have to work with the slayer to get the job done...tsk tsk tsk.


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stigant
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I liked that room for exactly that reason. In fact, its one of my favorites, as well. Once you get the hang of where he's going to go and how he's going to turn, its a piece of cake. The hard part is realizing what exactly you need to get him to do.

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MasterGiga
Level: Delver
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I just finished it this morning and the secret room next to it also...with way too many moves. Heh heh.

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MasterGiga
Level: Delver
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I'd like add one more thing. I think I voted mud just because of a recent room that I played and had to race against 3 mud queens. I think it was JtRH: L23, Once North...or Twice North. But anyway, I hated mud after that.

Now, I'm disliking tar a bit more than I did previously. I'm in L24 currently and facing both of the two, tar and mud.

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HopelessAmateur
Level: Master Delver
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Rabscuttle wrote:
Without a mother, I don't think it's possible to turn clearable mud into unclearable mud.

The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Make it so the corners will grow out of reach.

Nothing grows without a mother.

I used to think mud was easy until lower down JtRH. Now, give me tar!

SbCl3
Level: Delver
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Mud is definitely harder...

wackhead_uk
Level: Smiter

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People say it's easier to clean mud if you can get at the edges, but that still requires going up and down a lot before it's cleared.

wackhead_uk
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Here's another thought: Which is the more difficult room in JtRH - L20 1w, or L20 1N1W? That might change your minds.

masonjason
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stigant wrote:
Here's a question though: With tar, its possible to turn a clearable section into an unclearable section. For example, if you cut down the middle of a 2x5 blob (rather than cutting it at the ends), you'll create 2 2x2 blobs which are now unclearable. Is it possible with mud to start with a clearable blob, and end up with an unclearable blob? (without the presence of a mother).

I conjecture that the answer to that is "no", and that in fact if you hack at stable mud until you can't anymore, the residue will always be the same, no matter how you hack. No proof, though.

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schep
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masonjason wrote:
I conjecture that the answer to that is "no", and that in fact if you hack at stable mud until you can't anymore, the residue will always be the same, no matter how you hack. No proof, though.

Proof: Adding squares to the set of stable mud squares never makes a non-cuttable square cuttable. Stated another way, removing some mud by cutting never removes opportunity to cut somewhere else you could have. So if demo A leaves behind some mud that demo B removes, then the first cut in demo B where there is still mud after A can still be removed after A, and demo A is not complete. Any complete cutting will leave behind a minimal set of mud.

Maurog
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Can't you just say you can always clear mud, because it always has at least one corner, so if you keep cutting the corners you will eventually clear it? And if you add walls to the equasion, you can add other elements too, and I bet there are tons of examples where you can't clear the mud except in a certain way, because otherwise you die or get stuck or something. Stuff like "if I remove the mud like in demo A first, I can't remove the mud like in demo B because the mimic closed the door and it's unaccessible now".

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schep
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Maurog: True. I took walls-only as an implicit assumption for this problem.

Chalks
Level: Master Delver

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I'm going to have to say that mud is harder. however...this is only because in KDD I used tar so much that I'm no longer confused by it. I can predict every single thing it will do. So...because mud is new...it's harder.