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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
Anyway I finished up my run and made some decisions that will probably bite me like spending a lot of blue keys and using a lot of accessories (but that's what they're here for, right?). I suspect that telling the player how many blue key's you'll need for the tax might help one to feel more comfortable with some decisions.

ending stats
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> Steel Staff having defense on it was annoying. Didn't like constantly swapping weapons to check damage.

Completely agree. The primary issue is that there's a few chunks of the level where you have to walk through 4 or 5 rooms (some of which can't be fast travelled) just to change weapons, meaning optimal play for the hold becomes glacially slow and horribly unfun.

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[Last edited by blorx1 at 09-18-2025 04:11 PM]
09-18-2025 at 04:01 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v8.drh (72.6 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Sorry for taking a while for the next update, I didn't want people to spend too much time optimising something that won't be the last version, but also didn't want to wait any longer for proposed updates to the charity room or any others. Huge thanks to everybody that has played through and submitted end of level stats so far.

v8 contains two significant changes to test if it's better this way, we can revert one or both if people strongly disagree with them.

v8 changelog:
1S1E - Replaced with Xindaris's latest version of the room
2S - Extended pits around kobold kings for smoother fast travel
3S2W - Added inventory token
4S2E - Added single tile wall lights above all pits so they show up better under mist
6S2W - Add walls and increase size of platform to prevent collecting freebies
8S1W - Added inventory token
8S1E - Remove doors and pressure plate that go North and fix scroll typo
Updated inventory token to wait until you step off it to resend you to inventory
Added images to Scroll of Protection and Extend-O-Bridge (Thanks LovaP48!)

1S1W - Test replacing large defence gem with medium
7S1W - Test adding tunnels

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-18-2025 06:46 PM]
09-18-2025 at 06:42 PM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
are we concerned about selling the mistblade or have we decided it's just fine? (I am concerned, and would suggest 20 atk small weapon -> 0 atk large weapon maybe, but I also am not at all confident in my concern)
09-18-2025 at 07:39 PM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I do think selling it is kinda counterintuitive, mistblade feels more like a single use accessory that happens to be a weapon. and the permanent stats you get for trading it in are likely better than actually using it, which is a shame.

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09-18-2025 at 08:34 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+2)  
I'll leave that decision to you Thelas.
09-18-2025 at 08:54 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
!!!Major issue!!!

In the latest update, the "Mole Computator" script was not replaced by the script it has in what I posted earlier. So...it's slightly broken now in v8, and will only update the moles' stats upon combat. The updated script I posted makes it update every turn instead.

Sorry I wasn't completely clear on what should be copied over script-wise. The moles should have 276 atk about 1 turn after the player enters the room, for reference.

EDIT: A number (or two?) is also wrong!
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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-18-2025 11:46 PM]
09-18-2025 at 11:30 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v9.drh (72.5 KB)
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Thanks for checking the scripting. I guess there's an issue with updating default scripts when copying over a room, the character already existed in my copy so it wasn't copied over, it assumed the existing copy was what we wanted. I'll try to double-check these in the future.

v9 changelog:
- Fix Mole scripting
- Test Mistblade as 0 ATK and not a short weapon.
09-19-2025 at 12:03 AM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
kieranmillar wrote:
The Gorge George Goblins have almost the same colour scheme as King Kobolds, so we might want to change that.

I forgot about this whoops. I was kinda thinking I wanted them to look "misty" and didn't think about the level boss thing. I don't care too much if you have a color in mind, but picking something a bit random to turn them reddish we could go with _Hue=1, _Color=891999

As for the two new changes: I probably won't do a run with them (and the changes they'd cause to my actual route would be relatively minimal, beyond reordering a few actions of mine that relied on having +14 defense more and then being up the crate I used in 7S1W), but I think the def gem change is probably good although I lean against the change for the tunnel - at least without some tuning.

I think the tar mother was one of the level's most interesting obstacles - although I agree that it's painful to go east and then have no way to go to the west but I'm not sure this is the best solution. One option could be to put a green/blue door at 6,3 or something expensive as a way out for the player.

Although with the exception of 7S1E and 7S1W most of the level is pretty open past the west/east choice after the gap was opened in 6S1E so adding the tunnel mostly just affects how you handle 7S1E now, and I think with the entrances that are open in that room it'll be pretty similar regardless of the direction you choose (modulo how many firetraps you step through).

Admittedly it's not my room, so feel free to do whatever. I just liked the decision it forced in older versions.

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09-19-2025 at 12:25 AM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I agree that the tunnel makes it a bit too easy, at least as it is. Maybe a blue door should be put in front of it? that way it still works as a fallback if you want to get to that side of the level without using an accessory, or don't want to kill a brained tar mother blob, but obviously its not just free to use.

I think the maker of the room should be the one to decide though, I was fine without the tunnel, there are multiple accessories you can use to access the west after going east anyways.

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[Last edited by PigmyWubba at 09-19-2025 12:43 AM]
09-19-2025 at 12:42 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Thanks! It looks like the moles now work pretty much as intended. I'm noticing that for some reason the computator is counting an extra monster on turn 0 for a total of 17, but it's immediately fixed on the next turn. Maybe the character that generates the custom weapon gets counted. But it should be a ton less confusing now, since it is immediately fixed.

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09-19-2025 at 12:43 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
For what it's worth, I don't think balancing the level around not having to use accessories is a good idea. I'm also not a fan of the tunnel in the tar mother room. I thought fighting the tar mother made for an interesting goal, and it blocking off part of the bottom half of the level makes it worth fighting. With the tunnel, why would you ever even fight it?

As for donating the mistblade, I do think that this is an unfortunate consequence of how the level played out. Is there a way to check a weapon slot to see what weapon is in it? Or to check which weapon the player has equipped? I guess one workaround would be to give the mistblade a unique attack value that isn't shared with any other weapon, and then I can just write in an exception. The player would get some unique dialogue and the citizen would say they can't accept the donation. I already do something similar with the trash items, since the script checks specifically for +2ATK/+2DEF and runs a different branch of code for them.

edit: just checked and the mistblade has +20ATK which isn't shared with any other weapon on the level, so if we want to make an exception for it, I should be able to do that easily.

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[Last edited by mauvebutterfly at 09-19-2025 03:00 AM]
09-19-2025 at 02:57 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
Did another runthrough! Same start as last time. I was a little bit more willing to spend up some resources this time....

Final stats:
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Route notes:
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I am very happy with the tunnels in 7S1W, which is probably no big surprise.

Also:
mauvebutterfly wrote: I'm also not a fan of the tunnel in the tar mother room. I thought fighting the tar mother made for an interesting goal, and it blocking off part of the bottom half of the level makes it worth fighting. With the tunnel, why would you ever even fight it?
Killing the tar mother opens the black gate, which lets you kill the remaining brain(s) that you didn't before, so the other monsters in the room become much cheaper or free (including the bundle of tar babies left over). And you can kill all 4 brains without spending up a portable crate.

Without the tunnel, fighting the tar mother after going west at the fork is absurdly expensive, making going east at the fork and coming back by using up an extend-o-bridge the only reasonable-feeling option (in my opinion).

Then again, I'm bad at this game, and I play to survive, not for score, so...


Also: I feel like giving the mistblade 0 attack is kind of lame, for something that's a one-use weapon. Maybe you could just declare it non-donateable, have some dialogue where the guy rejects it because it's a "flimsy" weapon?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-19-2025 03:29 AM]
09-19-2025 at 03:25 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
People seem to be missing that the mistblade has No Enemy Defense enchantment, so its attack value is essentially equal to the enemy's defense.
09-19-2025 at 07:15 AM
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Thelas
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
yeah, I think the proposed change/change we're testing is in fact a buff for it, and hopeful it'll work well~
09-19-2025 at 07:40 AM
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mauvebutterfly
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
kieranmillar wrote:
People seem to be missing that the mistblade has No Enemy Defense enchantment, so its attack value is essentially equal to the enemy's defense.

Right, but it's intended to have ATK = EnemyDEF + 20, isn't it. Of course it's still good and usable at 0 ATK, but it doesn't necessarily need the nerf.

Then again, if putting it at 0 attack to make it worthless for the charity room is preferred to making it an exception to the charity room, I guess that's fine.

I need to make some changes to the charity room anyway since the scripting could do weird things if people try to bypass it using accessories. I'll wait to see if I need to make the mistblade an exception or not, and then I'll fix the room.

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09-19-2025 at 07:59 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (0)  
It used to be a small weapon, so it was Enemy Def + 20 + strike last. Now its Enemy Def + strike first. If the enemy had a single attack checkpoint within 20 atk, its the same, if it had one further away than 20 its now better. And if it had multiple within the 20 atk range, its worse.
09-19-2025 at 09:30 AM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
I admit, I never noticed it had no enemy def. I was too busy hoarding a one-use item for later.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-19-2025 03:18 PM]
09-19-2025 at 03:17 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (+1)  
kieranmillar wrote:
The Hobgoblins in 3S2E look too much like rock golems imo.

Best thing for this is to reduce the hue value on the Hobgoblins, somewhere between 100 and 200 works I think. (making them more red)

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09-19-2025 at 07:08 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (0)  
My pre-boss stats:
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[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-20-2025 12:41 PM]
09-20-2025 at 12:40 PM
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kieranmillar
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File: Hold Anonymous 4 v10.drh (75.4 KB)
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License: Public Domain
icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 2 Fixing Phase } (0)  
v10 changelog:
- Added missing map icons
- Updated colours of Hobgoblin and Gorge George's Goblin
- Fixed Mole's stats being wrong on turn 0 (it was caused by the inventory token, which it now ignores)
- Replaced tunnels in 7S1W with blue door
- Added checkpoints throughout level
- Added autosaves to some equipment pickups
- Added inventory token to 3S (other tokens are far away on this row)
- Added end of level boss and exit room with tax and scorepoint

End of level tax is:
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The remaining todo list
- Update portable crate to not destroy t-layer items.
- Change/Remove map icons when equipment collected / boss defeated
- Pending update to fix charity room scripting breakability
- Some new icons pending

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-20-2025 01:42 PM]
09-20-2025 at 01:40 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (0)  
I know I made another change to 7S1W without consensus, but I think the level is really good in this state. We can keep making some smaller balance changes to level 2 if we need to.

In the interest of moving this forum game along, it's time to open up signups for Round 3!

We have separate signups for each round, so post in this thread if you're interested. You can keep discussing the second level while we do this, of course.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-20-2025 01:46 PM]
09-20-2025 at 01:46 PM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (+1)  
Count me in for round 3 as well.

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09-20-2025 at 02:08 PM
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bomber50
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (+1)  
I'm in for Round 3.
09-20-2025 at 02:28 PM
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hyperme
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Round 3 for me please

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09-20-2025 at 02:35 PM
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PigmyWubba
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (+1)  
I went and did the boss, along with some further cleanup now that the level is mostly edited.

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Stats still including equipment. Since I didn't replay from the start to avoid the large DEF gem, likely I would have about 1500-2000 less health, and 14 less defense, but still there was enough leeway to make this playstyle of hoarding viable.

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[Last edited by PigmyWubba at 09-20-2025 02:44 PM]
09-20-2025 at 02:41 PM
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blorx1
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (+1)  
I'm in

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09-20-2025 at 03:10 PM
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Nuntar
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I'll join in again.

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09-20-2025 at 03:14 PM
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Red-XIII
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I'm in again!

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There's just this one, just this rock.
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09-20-2025 at 03:42 PM
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Xindaris
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (+1)  
Still interested.

I guess having the "reconnection" cost something instead of being free is a pretty good compromise. I mean, my run wound up with an "extra" blue key that could've been picked up earlier and used for that, so it mostly would've still worked.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-20-2025 04:05 PM]
09-20-2025 at 04:05 PM
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Pachy
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icon Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Signups } (+1)  
I'm still interested in making more rooms!

Curious, how many levels are we aiming for this one?
09-20-2025 at 04:21 PM
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