Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 3 Fixing Phase }

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bomber50
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

As it stands, for 2S1E/2S2E,

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My stats are

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I killed

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5S2W:

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With better optimization, I think I could save thousands of HP.

EDIT: Replayed with a defense-minded route.

Ending Stats (score-optimal trades):

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Two main improvements I can make to get a better score are

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[Last edited by bomber50 at 09-02-2025 06:27 PM]

09-02-2025 at 02:31 PM

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Someone Else
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

I have

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with lots still to get (just uncertain of its worth). I might try again without the short sword and see what I can do.

09-02-2025 at 04:11 PM

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bomber50
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Stats without ever getting

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I think it is perfectly reasonable to

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This does cause the

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[Last edited by bomber50 at 09-02-2025 08:24 PM]

09-02-2025 at 08:21 PM

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PigmyWubba
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

bomber50 wrote: This does cause the
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×rock golem to be unkillable, even if you collect every bit of attack there is besides the short sword

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On a seperate note, maybe swapping the wooden and short swords would also work? it is quite a bit more expensive to get there, and one of the two ways into that side of the level is a crumbly wall. If the problem is still just too much attack my prior suggestion of a 20 attack custom swords or maybe a large attack gem instead can also still be used.

The number of keys worries me a bit, you're gonna need like 2 rooms of doors if you want to drain them to a reasonable level going into level 2.

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[Last edited by PigmyWubba at 09-02-2025 09:38 PM]

09-02-2025 at 09:34 PM

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hyperme
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Some thoughts about a few things:

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09-02-2025 at 09:44 PM

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mauvebutterfly
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

I did a stream playing through the level giving my thoughts on things. I played through the level completely ignoring the room with the short sword.

Stream

Ignoring that one room entirely, the level actually felt pretty good. Obviously there are a few things that need to be cleaned up, and the inaccessible parts of a few rooms should probably be made somehow accessible.

I never found a reason to grab the scrap shield or Sting, since the cost for those was too high relative to the wooden shield and wooden blade, at least on my route. I never used the portable crate. Breaking into the room with the pickaxe didn't seem worth it, since I'd be using up the crate and still be forced to use the pickaxe to get out.

Final stats:

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09-03-2025 at 12:05 AM

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Xindaris
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Did a playthrough!

End stats:

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There's some keys and health I didn't go back for, but I basically got all the stats I could without spending the PC in a dumb-feeling way.

Thoughts:

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×Rooms that have accessories should probably get star or question-mark icons, instead of no icon. I kept having trouble remembering where the pickaxe room even was.

The water skipper in 1S1W is stupidly, obscenely expensive to take even a single hit with. You've got another, weaker hits-adjacent-player enemy RIGHT THERE in the same room, why not just use 1-3 of those instead???

The gimmick in 2S3W feels pointless in a level where I'm basically never running out of greckles. -1 any stat feels not remotely worth a few more moneys, even when killing all the monsters is free after taking the -1. I was able to buy my way past SO MANY of the ramping eyes in 5S2E. If the -1 def ONLY lasted inside the same room as the +2 greckles-per-monster buff instead of being permanent, THEN it would feel reasonable.

Going after sting or the scrap shield feels completely pointless when an actual sword capable of cutting things and dropping trapdoors, and a better shield, are kind of right there for the taking. The level really punishes not being able to cut things way too much for sting to ever be a good choice, in my opinion, especially since there aren't very many "goblin-type" monsters in the level at all.

The might scrolls don't feel very mighty. By the time I can get to those scrolls, a measly +3 attack barely does anything for me, ever. If it's going to be a 1-use buff that's used up the VERY NEXT FIGHT no matter what, I'd think it should be some huge-feeling amount for the level, like +10*levelmultiplier attack or something. It'd be nice if I could at least activate the scroll manually instead of it auto-using on whatever fight I next happen to bump into, so I could really save it for somewhere it matters.

Portable crate isn't as useful in this level as I'd hoped. Lots of places where trying to use it would just get you stuck without the key anyway. Not even much in the way of big-deal mist or hot tile spots it can help out with. Maybe if, in 2S1E, there was a button past the black door that would open the black door, then you could see it as a potential crate-to-pickax trade?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-03-2025 04:14 AM]

09-03-2025 at 04:07 AM

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Red-XIII
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

I did another run assuming that no sword exist at all, so I treated 5S2W and 4S2E like empty rooms. Here are my stats:
4879 HP
46 ATK
52 DEF
0 GR
Sting/Wooden Shield/Portable Crate
16/7/2/1/36

I take back what I said in my previous post, the scrap shield can be useful indeed, as well as the sting, because they are far easier to get in the first part of the level, unlike the wooden sword, which requires way more health and stats. I also used the scrolls of might to help me kill some monsters along the way by saving a little bit of health.
Considering that I could not take several gems due to not being able to destroy crumbly walls (and I did not take the gems in 5S2W), and given the stats I managed to reach, I think that the level is overall pretty balanced and not too hard. As for the short sword, my only recommendation is that I would not switch it with the wooden sword; every other solution mentioned is fine I think.

As for my water skipper in 1S1W, I get that it is quite tough, but my thought was that if this hold is backtrackable, you can go back to take that stuff when it’s for the best. If the hold will not be backtrackable, or if all the players feel that it’s too much, I can change it to a weaker monster.

Also, if a thematic level is to be made based on water, I note again that you can bring the flippers to the second level as of now due to the portable crate, so that would break the whole thing.

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09-03-2025 at 09:46 AM

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PigmyWubba
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

I don't mind the waterskipper, you're clearly not meant to fight it, its basically just 3 and a half hot tiles in a trench coat.

I think that the flippers being obtainable for the price of one portable crate is probably fine? Just need to build the next level with that possibility in mind, and while you can do a lot with them on this level of course I don't know if its a problem or just smart use of an accessory. Besides taking the flippers to the next level means you aren't taking any other accessories, which assuming we don't have an inventory or anything similar is opportunity cost.

If we want to fix it though its relatively easy I think, just split up the entrance and exit part of the lake in that room so that you can't reach the exit from the entrance any more.

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09-03-2025 at 10:25 AM

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hyperme
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+2)

Even if the hold ends up not having backtracking making the flippers freely available on the first level just means people won't use water.

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09-03-2025 at 10:37 AM

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Xindaris
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

To be clear, my thoughts on that post were just off-the-cuff "what would I be saying if I was playing this hold, as-is, fully published"...not necessarily me saying "make these changes!".

I will add that the two singular shovels in the north bit of 1S3W seem like an exceptionally weak reward for the trouble you'd have to through to get one, because of how very many shovels there are in the rest of the level.

Also, what's the point of the pressure plate at (1, 14) in 5S2E? The player isn't forced to press it, and all it does is close a door that the player would never want closed.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-03-2025 08:38 PM]

09-03-2025 at 08:37 PM

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hyperme
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Xindaris wrote:
Also, what's the point of the pressure plate at (1, 14) in 5S2E? The player isn't forced to press it, and all it does is close a door that the player would never want closed.

It means that you can't kill some of the Ramping Eyes, then leave and kill more later.

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09-03-2025 at 08:42 PM

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kieranmillar
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (0)

Xindaris wrote:
Also, what's the point of the pressure plate at (1, 14) in 5S2E? The player isn't forced to press it, and all it does is close a door that the player would never want closed.

If you can't complete the entire loop, you can run back out but this door will close and you can't get back in.

It's an option to grab some but not all the rewards if you tackle it early. Given the amount of greckles and stat growth the level ended up with, it's not something you'll likely do.

09-03-2025 at 08:44 PM

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bomber50
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+2)

In 1S2E, the bleached skipper at (8,7) will frequently attack the player if they try to do fast travel between entrances. This, to me is extremely irritating when this is a very common traversal room.

Move the skipper one space up, and add water at (7,7) and (9,7). Or add water at (7,7), (7,8), (9,6) and (9,7). Or move it to (15,0). Or remove it entirely and reduce the insane amount of greckles.

09-03-2025 at 08:47 PM

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Xindaris
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

That skipper is supposed to be a required hit for moving the southeastern powder kegs to the west. Do any of your suggestions still achieve that?

How about just shortening the 3-tall door and its accompanying wall around (12, 7) in some way that puts it less in the path through the room? As in, a square of alternate floor (11, 7)-(12, 8)?

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-03-2025 09:23 PM]

09-03-2025 at 09:18 PM

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kieranmillar
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Alright, finally have time to make another effort post collecting up all the suggestions, and see what needs to be done.

Major Balance Issues
The Short Sword is too strong and accessible and destroys the balance of the level. Multiple people have played the level while pretending it doesn't exist and feedback seems to be positive about that experience.

Two suggestions stick out to me:
1) Remove the doorwalking by straightening the black door.
2) Replace the sword with something else (+10 ATK gem is a common suggestion). This is strong enough that I think the doorwalking should still be removed in this case.

Any further thoughts on this? If not this is what I will go with. [DONE]

Minor Balance Issues
(Not sure if any of these should be changed, lean towards no)
- ~~Scroll of Might +3 is weak~~
- 1S3W: Green door for 1 shovel is very bad [DONE]
- 2S3W: Luck gem is very weak, level has greckles in abundance
- Flippers can be stolen with Portable Crate or future Portable Orb. (Unsure if actually an issue)

Inaccessible Areas
There is a pickaxe, but seems bad to use it for the two inaccessible areas, we should open them up.
- 2S1E - 2S2E: Easiest seems to be knocking out walls into 2S2E section, either after first yellow door of 4 yellow door chain, or after 3 green door chain to buff that option. [DONE]
- 3S1E (and potion in 4S1E): Would prefer advice from komachi what to do here. [DONE]

Traversal inconveniences
- 1S2E: Southern-most Bleached skipper very annoying for fast travel. [DONE]
- 2S2W: Remove Evil Eye. [DONE]
- 2S3E: Remove tunnels and yellow door as unnecessary. [DONE]

Author Requests
- 3S2E: Make the brain not killable early with sword (Red-XII, please be more specific on how this room should change) [DONE]
- 2S3E: Road floor in bomb radius and extra water tile for symmetry [DONE]

Visual updates
- Scroll of Might typo (oops my bad) [DONE]
- Scroll of Might image made by LovaP48 in discord [DONE]
- Scrap Shield image
- _MyDescription for Scroll of Might and Ramping Eye [DONE]
- Change Ramping Eye colour scheme to be more obviously custom (start yellow then get increasingly redder)?

Scripting updates
- Update portable crate to not destroy t-layer items.
- Change/Remove map icons when equipment collected (and decide what to do with them generally. More map icons?)

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-04-2025 06:35 PM]

09-03-2025 at 09:24 PM

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kieranmillar
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+2)

For the bleached skipper you can put open black door on the surrounding ground squares and multi-use pressure plates at the northern corners of the room that toggle this. That way you can block it off when traversing and reopen it when it's time to move the kegs.

09-03-2025 at 09:25 PM

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Xindaris
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

That's a great idea, let's do that.

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09-03-2025 at 09:31 PM

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LovaP48
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

kieranmillar wrote:
Major Balance Issues
The Short Sword is too strong and accessible and destroys the balance of the level. Multiple people have played the level while pretending it doesn't exist and feedback seems to be positive about that experience.

Two suggestions stick out to me:
1) Remove the doorwalking by straightening the black door.
2) Replace the sword with something else (+10 ATK gem is a common suggestion). This is strong enough that I think the doorwalking should still be removed in this case.

Given other people found it decent (and with the short sword merely existing, it makes many monsters free), I am in favour of the black door being just 3 tiles and to put a +10ATK gem.

kieranmillar wrote:
Minor Balance Issues
- 2S3W: Luck gem is very weak, level has greckles in abundance

Bummer, I was hoping that with the additional tax, it'd prove more useful to strategise about.

kieranmillar wrote:
Visual updates
- Scrap Shield image

I'm happy to draw something for this, but could use a nudge as to what we want a "scrap shield" to look like.

09-03-2025 at 11:40 PM

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Xindaris
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

As far as the portable crate destroying some things, I didn't specifically design it to do that. It's just that "build...crate" for some reason obliterates certain things. I guess you could check for various tokens before building the crate, then build the crate, then rebuild the token? But we can't really do anything about it destroying scrolls.

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[Last edited by Xindaris at 09-04-2025 04:47 AM]

09-04-2025 at 04:42 AM

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mauvebutterfly
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Seems far simpler to just not let the player use the portable crate while standing on something that we don't want being destroyed. I don't really see any benefit to letting the player place the crate specifically on a token. Sure, some contrived scenario could come up where it would matter, but the general idea of just placing or pushing a crate next to a door would still be intact.

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09-04-2025 at 07:35 AM

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Thelas
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

fwiw I think it's totally fine if the scrolls of might are weak, you'll use them somewhere where it's a breakpoint for 100 damage and that's what their intent was

09-04-2025 at 10:50 AM

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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

kieranmillar wrote:
The Short Sword is too strong and accessible and destroys the balance of the level. Multiple people have played the level while pretending it doesn't exist and feedback seems to be positive about that experience.

Two suggestions stick out to me:
1) Remove the doorwalking by straightening the black door.
2) Replace the sword with something else (+10 ATK gem is a common suggestion). This is strong enough that I think the doorwalking should still be removed in this case.

Any further thoughts on this? If not this is what I will go with.

Author Requests
- 3S2E: Make the brain not killable early with sword (Red-XIII, please be more specific on how this room should change)

As for the short sword, I agree with the replacement of a 10 atk gem and no door walking, given that 10 atk is quite good in this level.

As for my room, here is a screen showing how I meant to fix the issue.

Click here to view the secret text

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There's just this one, just this rock.
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[Last edited by Red-XIII at 09-04-2025 10:52 AM]

09-04-2025 at 10:51 AM

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komachi
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+3)

kieranmillar wrote:

Minor Balance Issues
(Not sure if any of these should be changed, lean towards no)
- 1S3W: Green door for 1 shovel is very bad

Inaccessible Areas
- 3S1E (and potion in 4S1E): Would prefer advice from komachi what to do here.

I played through the hold without getting the short sword, it was more balanced with plenty of health and keys left.
For my two rooms I made these changes.
1S3W: Change the green door to a yellow door and one shovel to a large health, I think it's better this way.
3S1E I will give the screenshot, it's two greeckles gates that closes with the plate and an antlion.

Click here to view the secret text

[Last edited by komachi at 09-04-2025 05:47 PM]

09-04-2025 at 05:46 PM

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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

kieranmillar wrote:
Visual updates
- Change Ramping Eye colour scheme to be more obviously custom (start yellow then get increasingly redder)?

That seems great! I can fiddle around with it, but if you beat me to it that works too.

09-04-2025 at 06:38 PM

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kieranmillar
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+6)

Alright here's the first round of fixes. There's still more on the todo list, and I haven't had the chance to play through myself yet, so haven't made the boss yet.

Changelog
- 5S2W: Replaced short sword with large attack gem and made black door not touch the adjacent doors.
- 2S2E: Added access to inaccessible area via green door chain (this seemed like the less used route and so makes this not accessible for "free")
- 3S1E: Added access to inaccessible area
- 1S3W: Changed green door to yellow and shovel to large health potion
- 1S2E: Improved traversability past bleached skipper with black door and pressure plate setup.
- 2S2W: Removed evil eye
- 2S3E: Removed tunnel and yellow door, and made visual change
- 3S2E: Made brain unreachable early
- Fixed typo on Scroll of Might, added image and description
- Added description and added new colour scheme to Ramping Eye

The remaining todo list
- Scrap Shield image [DONE]
- Make flippers unstealable [DONE]
- Update portable crate to not destroy t-layer items.
- Change/Remove map icons when equipment collected
- Boss room and end of level resource drain

Things to discuss (I will get round to starting a discussion soon)
- Should level be unbacktrackable?
- What to do with map icons going forward?

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 09-05-2025 10:11 AM]

09-04-2025 at 06:48 PM

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Someone Else
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

I would suggest not having the level backtrackable. We've got lots of people involved; that's enough of a state space. But maybe we should put it to a vote?

09-04-2025 at 07:36 PM

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Thelas
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

My question re backtracking would be "do people feel like there are worthwhile places to use the scrolls of might on this floor", I would be a little sad if they just sit there ignored (though I guess if there's even one accessory slot at the start of level 2 you'd be able to bring one with.)

09-04-2025 at 07:58 PM

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komachi
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

Tried another run with the changes.
Stats:

Click here to view the secret text

Without the short sword is much better, the power gem is still pretty good reward for the spider. Killed the rattlesnake (used pickaxe for power gem) and gel baby.
About backtracking, I suggest not because I think it can be interesting to decide what weapon and accesory bring to the next level. But also I'm not against allowing backtracking.

09-04-2025 at 08:19 PM

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PigmyWubba
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Re: Hold Anonymous 4 { Round 1 Fixing Phase } (+1)

I also think there should be no backtracking, the levels are gonna be large enough as it is, it will get super tedius to backtrack constantly, and the choice of which equipment and accessories to bring with you into the next level is more interesting.

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09-04-2025 at 09:05 PM

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