Kalin
Level: Master Delver

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Dragon Fogel wrote:
The percentage seen upon completing a hold is just the percentage of secret rooms you completed. Leaving uncleared rooms that aren't secrets has no effect on it.

I had been wondering about this for a while, and it's interesting to see this while testing JS-DROD where the percentage counts more than just secrets.

For most games "100%" means every achievement and usually every ending and maybe other things. For DROD, I'd like it to mean "conquered every reachable room and earned every achievement".

The first half was suggested before, and Sillyman offered a definition of "reachable". We only need the final count, so this would only need to be calculated when exported/published. Are there any published holds with "reachable" but unconquerable rooms?

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Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
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Kalin wrote:
I had been wondering about this for a while, and it's interesting to see this while testing JS-DROD where the percentage counts more than just secrets.

I'm pretty sure it's still just secrets there. It was when I played it back in the day, anyhow.

There are definitely holds with reachable unconquerable rooms. Enough that it would take some work to track them all down if we were going to do something like "there's a new mark you can give a room to indicate if it counts for completion percentage".

The most feasible implementation would be adding total rooms conquered/visited/in the hold stats and making them visible somewhere.

hyperme
Level: Smitemaster

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Programmatically determining which rooms are reachable from a hold's initial entrance is non-trivial and possibly impossible.

Theoretically the total rooms visited and conquered across all saves could be collated for a hold, but as Dragon Fogel has noted, there are plently of reachable rooms that are unconquerable.

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mauvebutterfly
Level: Smitemaster

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Couldn't there just be an algorithm similar to scoring in RPG where we just assume that the player with the most rooms cleared has 100%?

I know it's not perfect, since the number will be inaccurate until someone fully clears a hold, but it should be a pretty simple way to grab a number for calculations. I think it would be good enough in this case.

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Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

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But then that would make completion percentage an online-only feature. It would also require a change in the database structure to include number of rooms cleared as a tracked piece of information (unless you want to go by number of scorable rooms cleared instead, which isn't quite the same thing).

Besides, I don't agree with the original premise. If you replace the percentage of secrets with a percentage that indicates secrets, challenges and number of rooms cleared -- well, how do you rank those against each other? There are already ways to check challenge progress and scorable rooms progress separately, but if we make the completion percentage mean something else, we lose the ability to check secret progress (short of manually adding up the secrets per level figures from the Restore screen).

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50th Skywatcher

Dragon Fogel
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Secret percentage definitely needs to be kept as a tracked count somewhere, whatever else happens, because that's what the Master Wall uses. And changing that retroactively would be incredibly impractical.

Kalin
Level: Master Delver

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Nuntar wrote:
(unless you want to go by number of scorable rooms cleared instead, which isn't quite the same thing).

I had forgotten that already existed. Are there published holds where it is possible to clear every secret room, required room, and challenge without doing all the reachable unscorable rooms?

If you replace the percentage of secrets with a percentage that indicates secrets, challenges and number of rooms cleared -- well, how do you rank those against each other?

Why not rank scorable rooms equally to challenges? I want to know how close I am to being finished with the hold. 100% should mean there is nothing left to see or do.

There are already ways to check challenge progress and scorable rooms progress separately, but if we make the completion percentage mean something else, we lose the ability to check secret progress (short of manually adding up the secrets per level figures from the Restore screen).

If I'm missing secrets, I'll go to the Restore screen because "where" is more important than "how many". I don't consider a percentage of secrets cleared to be a useful measure of how complete a hold is. (I hope that master walls look at the count not the percentage; I bet DKH can produce some impressive rounding errors here.)

I've been playing this game for almost a decade and I'm just now learning what that percentage represents. (Yes, it's mentioned in the in-game help if anyone looks.)

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Dragon Fogel
Level: Smitemaster
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Kalin wrote:
I had forgotten that already existed. Are there published holds where it is possible to clear every secret room, required room, and challenge without doing all the reachable unscorable rooms?

Yes. Just off the top of my head, there's a room in the Hold Title Mix-Up compilation which is unrequired and unscorable because it's very random and unpleasant. There's also Lunchbreak Special, where one level is the same room repeated and you have to find a way to solve it once to finish the level. Only the Entrance is scorable.

In general, people do different things with their holds and some of those things include unsolvable rooms, inaccessible rooms, and rooms that aren't scorable which you never have to interact with even if they can be reached and solved in normal play. All that HA covers in regards to completion is "can the hold be conquered, can the hold be mastered, are all challenges obtainable".

After beating a hold, the Restore screen tells you how much you've explored of any level you've been to and how many secrets there are on each level. It does not show levels which you haven't been to. In addition, each save accessible from the Restore screen tracks your rooms visited and conquered on that particular save.

Listing the global values for those counts somewhere, along with a "visited" percentage for the entire hold, is probably the most feasible way of implementing something like this. And then completionists would just grumble and move on when there are rooms we can't complete, like we have to do already when there's a level where you can't get to 100% of the rooms.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 06-01-2025 02:52 AM]

skell
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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I had been wondering about this for a while, and it's interesting to see this while testing JS-DROD where the percentage counts more than just secrets.

The only reason KDDL can display more interesting percentage is because we are in full control of the holds and know that all rooms are reachable and clearable. One possible solution for Real Drod™ would be to give the hold authors tools to mark rooms as "include in 100% total" but that has its own set of issues:
- What about old holds?
- What about if hold authors make a mistake?

Another option would be to use the wisdom of the crowds and use CNet to determine which rooms have scores in them after certain period from hold release.
But then it starts feeling like a bit of an overkill for such a niche game as DROD.

I've been playing this game for almost a decade and I'm just now learning what that percentage represents.

Worry not, I've been playing the game for two decades and there are still things I learn about it

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