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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Changeling Chambers (An old hold made for my BF)
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JustSomeDude
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icon Changeling Chambers (+2)  
There was a time in 2020 where after I had introduced my BF to DROD, we made a thing out of creating short* holds to send to each other and watch each other beat. This was one such hold, the largest in the sequence from me, and the hold I'm most proud of out of the trend.

Why AE? At the time, it was the only version he had access to. Additionally, I find that working under tight constraints is a fun challenge for me, having to find creative ways to work with and around the comparatively tiny palette I have access to.

Looking for feedback! Plenty of these rooms are exactly the same as when I first made them five years ago (barring a few fixes), but there are some fleeting moments (such as 1S1W) where I had to entirely rework a room. If you feel like a certain room isn't presented well or is confusing to look at, let me know! If you see something you really really like, let me know about that too! I wanna make sure this hold is the best it can be before I submit it.

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Now I live on, my story to tell,
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03-09-2025 at 02:38 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+4)  
Played through most of this (49 rooms explored, looking in the editor tells me there are 54). There's a lot of good here, but unfortunately there are some things that are quite bad.

I'll start with the good. I like the focus on exploration. Going through rooms like 1W that have a promise of "you'll be able to come back from a different entrance later to clear this" feels good. Finally finding the way to reach that entrance and crossing it off a mental checklist feels great. There is some good attention to aesthetics; a lot of rooms look nice, there is variety throughout the level, and there are large-scale features like the corridor in the north rooms that make the level feel a bit more alive.

Most of the rooms ask players to do quite familiar tasks such as manipulating mimics or goblins, dropping trapdoors, clearing tar. But a lot of these feel like they have just about the right amount of stuff in them to keep the player engaged without getting overwhelming or frustrating. Rooms like 3N, 1N2W, 1N3W, 2N2E would be enjoyable for new players, and are still enjoyable for anyone who wants a break from modern linchpin puzzles and to relax with some good old-fashioned smiting. And 3N1W is an absolutely lovely multiple-mimic puzzle.

Now for the not-so-good....

Some rooms go on for too long. In 1S5E, for instance, there is a technique to clearing tar on trapdoors without getting stuck, and it's an interesting challenge to work this out -- but then you have to do a whole room of it and it takes for ever. I know it's hard to let go of rooms that mean something to you for personal reasons, but this one would really benefit from being trimmed down to about half as much tar. 1N2E and 3S4E have similar problems.

Overall, hidden stuff under tar was used in too many rooms, and it leads to rather tedious guess-and-check gameplay. I know this is built in AE so you couldn't use vision tokens, but in a room like 4E you could at least make the tar more constrained so the player isn't searching under such a huge blob. 3N2W is extremely tedious to search for the trapdoors while under continual tar baby harassment, and I gave up on this one entirely.

3E needs a checkpoint near the NE doors and one near the SE doors.

Going south from 3N2E will get the player stuck if they haven't cleared 2N2E yet.

Too many rooms had red doors. Sometimes they are used well, but for example, in 1S3E, 1S4E and 2S5E, nothing of interest is added by making the player drop all the trapdoors, and in 2S5E it's especially tedious. (1S would be another case but I didn't get that far :P )

You need to be aware that the player doesn't know the level layout in advance and may not make optimal decisions. This was really driven home by 1S1W, where after clearing the room, the player is forced to go north. If they haven't yet gone west, getting back around to 1S1W to explore to the west means going through a number of rooms again, including two orb puzzles and a trapdoor puzzle that have to be redone. Similarly, if the player leaves the north section before clearing all the rooms there, to get back they have to drop all the trapdoors in 2N1W twice more.

Finally, according to HA rules the presence of a room copied from JtRH (even altered) is grounds for instant rejection.

Good luck with the hold; I think this could be a very nice hold with a little bit more work :thumbsup

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03-09-2025 at 05:43 AM
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JustSomeDude
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
Thanks for the feedback!

I'm really glad you enjoy the aesthetic design and exploration. That sort of stuff is some of my favorite stuff to put together in level design.

As for the issues you found... wow, that's a lot more than I expected lol. Thanks for it all though! I'll start tweaking and fixing, and honestly just considering scrapping 1S5E as much as I don't want to. Will have a Version 2 out as soon as I can.

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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
03-09-2025 at 01:04 PM
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JustSomeDude
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File: Changeling Chambers (rev2).hold (22.7 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+2)  
And as it turns out, "as soon as I can" is right now. Here's a revision, addressing every room you highlighted in some way. Full changelog below:
Click here to view the secret text


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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
03-09-2025 at 02:46 PM
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JustSomeDude
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File: Changeling Chambers (rev3).hold (22.8 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
Following a playtest by my BF (the very same one!) earlier tonight, there have been found a number of other things I needed to add or change. Namely, easier backtracking through conquered rooms in the SE sector and another softlock to prevent. Another revision, wheeeeee!

I do hope posting so many revisions in quick succession doesn't make playtesting too frustrating or annoying. If that is the case and there are ways to mitigate it, please let me know.

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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
03-10-2025 at 02:12 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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File: Changeling Chambers demos.demo (31.7 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
Started running through this. Here are the rooms I've been through so far.

Thoughts on what I've played:

Click here to view the secret text

03-10-2025 at 11:03 PM
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JustSomeDude
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Man...

Thanks for your feedback as well. I see now that there's a lot more revision than I expected there to be before this thing can be considered truly done. Shame, though; while I can see a lot of where your critique is coming from and can totally see how implementing many of your suggestions would improve things... 3E is one of my favorite rooms in the hold lol. And honestly I may just follow through with that scroll and remove 1S5E entirely.

I'll get another revision out, for sure. Just not sure how long it's gonna take me to do so.

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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
03-11-2025 at 01:50 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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File: Changeling Chambers Demos 2.demo (31.6 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (0)  
Continued from 3E.

Click here to view the secret text

03-15-2025 at 12:26 AM
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komachi
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File: Changeling Chambers.demo (25 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (0)  
I'll give the demos for the current version.

I like the idea of getting codes to advance through the level like Metroid AE, the rooms were mostly fine from AE era.
Some comments for some of them.
Click here to view the secret text

03-15-2025 at 09:24 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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File: Changeling Chambers.demo (47 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
Ran through the rest of the rooms, other than the unrequired one.

Overall, my opinion of this amounts to that it's an oldschool AE hold, and most of its qualities, both positive and negative, boil down to that.

It does have tricky navigation, which I consider a distinctive and generally positive trait; I kept finding myself thinking of it as "Loony Labyrinth Lite". And at this stage, there's only a few rooms where it felt like they outstayed their welcome.

On this session, what mainly struck me were rooms that felt like they weren't living up to their potential.

Click here to view the secret text


All this is just my opinion. As I said to you the other day, I've been through every hold so I have a bit of a bias against some things I've seen a lot of. (Especially in AE and JtRH-era holds.)

That said, I would encourage you to look at the navigation mechanisms which are just "clear the room and a green door opens so you can go through another part of it" and see if there are any where you can think of something less direct. (Something along the lines of the tar growth mechanisms, for instance, where monsters in the room are the problem.) Sometimes there aren't, and AE elements are particularly limiting in this regard, but that also makes it more interesting when you do run into a setup like that.
03-15-2025 at 06:45 PM
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JustSomeDude
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File: Changeling Chambers (rev4).hold (22.1 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
After a long while, I've finally returned with another revision. I've further eased the process of navigating the hold after clear, fixed up a few rooms to hopefully make them either more interesting or less convoluted, and tried to introduce a little more of the feeling 1W gives off in terms of navigation and "oh I have to come back later for this."

The hold is still set so anyone can edit, so those who have already beaten the hold don't have to do so again if they don't want to (I do intend to set this back to conquerers if and when the hold is properly submitted).

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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
04-01-2025 at 10:11 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
I decided to play this again from the start. Seems like the major problems have been fixed :thumbsup

1S3E: This is pretty tricky when entering from the north, and there isn't a checkpoint available until you've cleared the room.

2S5E: When I suggested removing the red door, I didn't mean all the trapdoors as well! They made this room a lot more interesting; now it feels rather mundane.

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50th Skywatcher
04-02-2025 at 12:36 AM
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JustSomeDude
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File: Changeling Chambers (rev5).hold (22.2 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+1)  
Minor revision of previous revision. Yahoooo!
Fixed up some more rooms that Nuntar saw error in

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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
04-02-2025 at 01:20 AM
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Dragon Fogel
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File: CC Revised Room Demos.demo (28.8 KB)
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icon Re: Changeling Chambers (+3)  
For future reference, it's useful if you note the specific rooms you've changed. I was planning on looking at the current rooms to refresh myself before viewing the changes, but I didn't have anything specific to look at.

So I've just looked at a couple of rooms where I know they've changed, but if you want me to look at anything else, it will be easiest if you mention the specific rooms.

2N1W: Much better! Maneuvering the mimic feels more like a task I have to think about and not just busywork.

1S3E: I remember you were talking about changing this one, but I don't recall the difference. Anyhow, it seems fine to me.
04-09-2025 at 04:36 AM
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JustSomeDude
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Dragon Fogel wrote:
For future reference, it's useful if you note the specific rooms you've changed.

Genuinely I meant to do that but just forgot. Multiple times in a row. It's a thing I do constantly unfortunately :(

Regardless, I'm glad you found the hold a lot better than before! Do you think it's solid enough to submit? I think and really hope it is by this point but am super afraid of realizing I forgot something after the fact lol (that's happened before too. I am truly a mess)

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Raised by one who knew the roach well
And was well-acquainted with the dungeon way.
Now I live on, my story to tell,
To ensure our legacy surely will stay.
04-09-2025 at 06:01 AM
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