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Caravel Forum : DROD RPG Boards : RPG Bugs : Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be
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hyperme
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icon Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+2)  
If you have a metal sword/shield/accessory, standing on oremites negates any changes it makes to your stats, as expected.

However, this doesn't apply to many effects that equipment can grant. An easy example is that if you have a non-metal sword, along with a metal shield or accessory that has the briar cutter behavior, you can still cut briars.

This also happens when scripting is used to disable an equipment type.

In theory fixing this could cause a problem, but since it requires some very specific situations it probably hasn't come up in a published hold.

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12-02-2024 at 03:27 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+4)  
It turns out this problem was previously discovered for Lucky Blade.

Somehow everyone involved came to the conclusion that this was intentional. I don't think this is true, and even if it was, the decision was bad.

Why it's not true: In spite of what skell claimed, I can find no evidence of comments or code structure that points to this being intentional. In fact, the code suggests the very opposite - there is logic such that if your sword is disabled, this negates the ATK boost from Weakness behaviours, and it also negates the No Enemy Defense behaviour for swords (but not on shields, which looks like an oversight since it happens for weapons). This is a blatant inconsistency, which does not seem like a game design you would do on purpose. I also think this is a very easy thing to overlook, as adding new equipment behaviours requires multiple changes across many code files.

Disabled items also can't be 'used' to invoke "Each use" script functions, which includes being disabled because of being metal on oremites.

Why it's bad: If a piece of equipment is disabled, it should actually be disabled. None of its properties should apply. This is what most players and architects are going to think, and they are going to make decisions based on that assumption. Now, if this were consistently wrong, and all behaviours still applied for disabled equipment, that might be okay. But instead, some behaviours become inactive, while others don't, which is bad.

There is a worry that fixing this could affect old scores, but I find that unlikely, as it requires counterintuitive behaviour in situations I think are going to be rare.

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12-07-2024 at 12:02 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+3)  
If you change the lucky blade, then late scores in Tendry's Tale will absolutely be affected. There aren't all that many enemies on oremites, but there's enough.

I would prefer this to be fixed, at least for everything else, but changing the lucky blade's greckle-earning behaviour would be a breaking change.
12-07-2024 at 01:05 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+3)  
I agree with the design principle that disabled equipment should be completely disabled. It was my bad that originally disabling equipment didn't disable all behaviors.

Just curious -- what is our plan here?

Are we okay altering behavior for part 2 of TT?

Do we want to include this change into a future 1.x release?

Do we want to re-verify CaravelNet scores after making the change?

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[Last edited by mrimer at 12-09-2024 05:04 PM]
12-09-2024 at 05:03 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+2)  
I think a good plan would be:

1. Make a 1.2.9 spider build that has the fixes for all existing equipment behaviours (luck/no enemy defense on shields/the strike ones)
2. Test RPG demos with that build
3. See if any break
4. If not too many breaks happen (not sure how many is too many), the change is okay, and potentially an updated 1.2.9 build can be pushed.

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12-09-2024 at 08:17 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+2)  
Thanks! Sounds good. Please go ahead with this at your convenience.

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12-09-2024 at 09:11 PM
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hyperme
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+4)  
With some help from Schik (read: Schik did all the difficult parts), we can now find the effect on scores if this is fixed. A branch of 1.2.9 was made with the fix, and all scores reverified using a spider built using that branch.

The results can be seen here on a special page. Anything with a test score of zero failed to be verified. The rank a score has is also included, and the important part is a score with a rank of -1 has been superceded by another score that score's owner has submitted.

Only 26 non-superceded scores have failed to verify. Most of these are in the part two of TT, but three are from elsewhere (and from different scorepoints). Some scores have gone down a little while still being verified.

One cocern is that players may lose out if both their current ranked score is invalid, and they don't have a good unranked score to replace it.

Overall, the impact of this change is relatively small in terms of affected scorepoints, but does affect or invalidate a non-small amount of scores.

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[Last edited by hyperme at 12-14-2024 04:53 PM]
12-14-2024 at 04:53 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+1)  
As expected, late game Tendry's Tale is heavily affected. Most of these are the score points to you can leave until the end and get them all at once: Buried Treasure, Cleared Vaults, Defeated the Archivist, Preserved Tueno and The Elusive Potion.

What I had forgotten about was the lucky blade in Rule 8, which heavily impacts Defeated Slayer, but interestingly not Escaped the Beneath, I guess you can avoid the lucky blade there as you have no need to farm money.

The two Defeated Red Guard scores are weird. That's the Rule 5 score points, no idea why it would have failed.

For other holds, The Heist is easily explained, there's a lucky greckle and accessories are disabled in the Entrance, which has 2 enemies. This one impacts all scores equally with no desynch, so is all good.

I will have to investigate the others further.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 12-15-2024 06:55 AM]
12-15-2024 at 06:54 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+1)  
One question I have about this: if this were to be changed, how would we verify future Tendry's Tale scores? Will the RPG1 engine be updated with this change? Presumably the spider will only be running on the RPG2 engine, but that's no good if Tendry's Tale submissions can only be made on an engine with different behaviour.
12-16-2024 at 01:03 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+2)  
Going over the list of non-TT scores:

2018 Year of RPG Compilation - The Heist
Accounted for in my previous post and perfectly fine, reducing all player's scores by the same amount with no risk of desynch.

Cludo's dungeon - Sandy liche killed!
This makes absolutely no sense at all. There's no special equipment behaviours or lucky equipment for this scorepoint. The hold gives the player a basic custom weapon but it's just metal and stats, and there's nothing about level 2 in particular that I can figure out that could possibly cause a failure due to this change.

Escape from Monster Jail! - Escaped!
Another odd one. This is the final scorepoint, but there's actually 3 scorepoints in the final room. So why only this one? Only thing I can think of is that something changed with Goblin Biter on oremites when fighting goblin kings, however a quick check on the old engine and the new one shows no change in behaviour here, it's always been properly disabled. It's worth noting 4 people have recorded a score here, but this is only affecting 2 people.

Hold Anonymous - Leaving level 4
Again, no reason why this would fail given the change. I cannot see any custom equipment with special behaviours, or lucky items.

Nameless Fortress - Asha defeated!
This is the boss of the penultimate level, reduced by a round number of points (60). No clue.

Nameless Fortress - Gray Strides beaten!
The next boss along from the above, also failed for the same person, and again by a round number of points (130 and 120). So probably the same cause.

None of these except The Heist feel related ot the change at all. Is this actually a compariosn of scores verified against the current 1.2.9 vs the current 1.2.9 with this one change cherry-picked in, or is it just vs the scores on the table, which may have been broken because of some other change earlier down the line?
12-16-2024 at 02:40 PM
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Schik
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+5)  
I'll take a look at all of these that don't make sense and see if it's something I can fix. I had to fix a lot of things in order to re-verify them at all, and I would not be shocked if I can get some of these to re-verify correctly.

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12-16-2024 at 03:43 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+1)  
Nameless Fortress has an optional Lucky Blade in Broken Stairwell 1S2W, and there are a lot of oremites rooms in earlier levels that might be affected when doing clean-up.

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12-16-2024 at 10:25 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+1)  
Ah, I really need to get more familiar with Nameless Fortress, I didn't spot that when looking over the hold, even though it's like the most obviously out in the open sword of them all, sigh.

I would say the presence of that, and enemies on oremites throughout, is enough to explain all the Nameless Fortress score differences.
12-16-2024 at 10:30 PM
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Schik
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+2)  
I think I cleared up all of the errors on my side, and the handful of demos that made no sense are all successfully re-verified. As far as I can tell, everything that's currently on the list is something that is actually affected by the change in question.

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12-17-2024 at 02:17 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+3)  
Thanks.

So ultimately this mostly boils down to annihilation of the late game Tendry's Tale scores. The last scorepoint, Defeated the Archivist, has 9 of the top 10 scores on this list, and while some survive with some lower scores, many just desynch completely.

So I guess the question is, is it OK to expect people to play through all of TT again in the new engine? Let's be real, while there are some people that like optimising RPG, the leaderboards are really not all that popular. Still, it's a shame to see people's hard work get destroyed.

Perhaps it's worth noting that this isn't even the first time the late game TT scores have been blown up, the hold was updated many years ago to add a shortcut to the 4th level of the second half, which also desynched most scores.
12-17-2024 at 05:58 PM
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mrimer
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icon Re: Not all effects of equipment are disabled when they should be (+4)  
My two cents:

While I do empathize with a Patron-like aversion to destroying any knowledge in the pursuit of perfection, I think we should move forward with this change to support the integrity of the new release.

If we can accommodate players whose scores get blown up in some way as a courtesy, that would be nice. For instance, it may be helpful to list such instances and/or inform players directly (say, via an automated PM, if we can do that easily).

Something like:

As we release the 2.0 version of DROD RPG, we are taking the opportunity to fix game logic bugs that would harm the play experience. We've tried to make this change low-touch while providing you a good play experience. We've scanned player's scores, and we've identified these score points for your player profile that have become invalid as a result of the change:

Scorepoint_1
...

As a result, these scores won't show up under your name until a new play using the updated 2.0 game logic is submitted.

We apologize for the change. Feel free to replay to these score points in the new 2.0 game engine to have the scores re-posted. We appreciate your patience and understanding.

You mentioned the question of how much players care about the leaderboard. I'm sure some do, but for players who are no longer active, they may well not care about this event at all at this point (and they may never read the PM if they don't log in). In that case, it becomes a question of "if a tree falls in the forest...".

For active players who care, if we could also indicate at what point (e.g., what room) a score point's playthrough became invalid. That might be useful. Then they could restore to a place before reaching that room to replay to the score point -- as opposed to replaying the whole thing -- which is the least painful way I can think of to revive the impacted playthroughs.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

[Last edited by mrimer at 12-20-2024 05:38 PM]
12-17-2024 at 10:54 PM
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