larrymurk
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OK, I know that pushable blocks were mentioned long ago but I just hope it can be reconsidered because:

1) It would be simple to program
2) It would add incredible options to level design

They don't need to be used in JtRH at all, but couldn't they be available for architects to play with?

I understand that the designers don't want DROD to be just like all the other puzzle games. My response is that many other games have floors, walls, doors, and switches. Yes, someone could (and probably would) design Sokoban type levels. Then again it is up to users to only play holds they like. I'm sure architects would devise infinite ways to use blocks.

Blocks could only be pushed orthagonally (not diagonally) and would fill in pits to create floors.

Doom
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If you want sokoban, get Sokoban

larrymurk
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I don't want another Sokoban!

I just think there would be great uses for pushable blocks.

Abbyzzmal
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(Deliverance voice) We don't take kindly to pushable blocks around these parts.


There are advantages, naturally, to having them, but DROD thrives without them, and the addition of them has the danger of making people think, "Well. Another Chip's Challenge clone."

If you could figure out a way to implement the features of a block into a different form more exclusive and fitting to DROD, then that would be something else entirely. I don't know, I think something that's been suggested before is a block that can be stabbed by Beethro and rotated/dragged along and dropped by moving in the opposite direction. It gets complicated with diagonals, though, so it's not a great suggestion (unless say, the block adds enough mass to Beethro's sword to increase the momentum per swing and thus the block stays in orthagonal directions), but this is the sort of thing that would be met with a little less hesitation.

Mattcrampy
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Certainly, DROD has walls, doors and switches. Doors and switches do serve similar purposes to other games.

Or do they? How many other games can you get up on top of a door and use it as high ground? And, of course, few games use doors in the comprehensive way that DROD does - they can be used as barriers, sure, but they can also be used as traps, to build mazes, all sorts of things.

And walls, well, you need to put barriers some way.

Our objection to movable blocks is based around their uniqueness. Look at it the other way - can you make puzzles using pushable blocks which haven't been done before in everything from Sokoban to Zelda? There was an iron block idea I saw floating around that I liked, where you'd have magnetic orbs, or maybe just regular orbs, and striking one would send the iron block flying away from or towards the orb. Much like one of those sokoban puzzles on an ice floor where the blocks keep sliding. But think of what else you could do - it can be a trap; if your sword's pointing the wrong way you get a face-full of iron block. It's a weapon of mass destruction, as you could use it to slay a whole load of roaches all at once.

What kind of puzzle could you do with a pushable block that you couldn't do in another game?

Matt

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larrymurk
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OK, you got me. I don't have any specific ideas on tricks/gameplay using moving blocks.

That said, I still imagine if they were availabe, I'm sure architects would come up with brilliant uses.

The blocks could help block monsters, cross pits, who knows.. You could have rooms where you have to set up the blocks before hitting an orb that releases monsters.

DROD is the best, most unique turn-based puzzle game I've ever played. I believe that even with the option to use movable blocks, DROD will always be unique because of its other features (ie. sword, monsters).

PS. About me. It just so happens that I am a quadriplegic so I can't play action games. I am 40 and have written several turn-based puzzle games myself, most notably Block-man. As for DROD, i LOVE LOVE LOVE it. I have written a hold called Odyssey that I'll be submitting shortly and I will certainly always love and play DROD with or without pushable blocks. I'm looking forward to JtRH, it sounds awesome! You folks are doing a super job!!

joker5
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These blocks would add a greater 'tactical' element to DROD, which I think would be cool, because DROD is really a genre-bender and combines strategy with puzzles with a little bit of action. The problem is there aren't nearly enough strategy-based holds around, so I think this could remedy it. On the other hand, there has been an official statement to the effect of 'Blocks are not in'.

On the OTHER other hand, there was an official statement (as far as I remember) that tunnels were not in, and look what became of that....

~joker5

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eytanz
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joker5 wrote:
On the OTHER other hand, there was an official statement (as far as I remember) that tunnels were not in, and look what became of that....

~joker5

Actually, according to the forum search, there never was such a statement (I certainly don't remember it). In fact, the first dev response to the suggestion on the forums was quite enthusiastic:

http://www.drod.net/forum/viewtopic.php?TopicID=840&page=0#4765



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joker5
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Well, I fully believe there are statements that imply the existance of such a statement... Unless the lovable dev team has been at it with airbrushes again.

I swear we should never have let them ressurrect Stalin.

~joker5

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Mattcrampy
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Joker:

What, exactly, do you mean by 'tactical'? Is what you're thinking of capable of being approximated by yellow doors or wubbas?

Matt

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joker5
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By tactical I mean a puzzle with multiple solutions but more complexity than a simple roach horde. Non-tactical puzzles can be seen in Veere's Dungeon: the minimalist puzzles have exactly one way to get through. This would make it necessary to plan the destruction of roaches by placing elements on the map that in effect change the terrain(as far as the roaches are concerned) without placing mimics.

Yes it could in theory be approximated but come on, who's gonna set up 50 yellow doors + 50 orbs for an approximation? Besides, try to do that and you'll see that there's certain puzzles that can't be replicated.

~joker5

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agaricus5
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Actually, pushable blocks don't really have more of an ability to generate "tactical" puzzles than any other monster. These could just as easily create specific puzzles, where an exact sequence of moves is required to complete the room. In fact, this element would be pretty limited in DROD, since the blocks can only be moved if you are standing next to one, and so they'd limit the sorts of puzzles you can make with them to basic blockage in manipulation puzzles or large hordes, or blocking you from entering a passage. Both of these can be approximated with wraithwings, goblins (and perhaps force arrows) and mimics. You can generate a portable wall using Golems (when you destroy them), and you can also make a portable wall out of a Wubba if you are right next to it.

Using a little ingenuity can generate these sorts of puzzles with other elements, so I don't think it's worth just putting this new element in to make it more conveniently easy, for the number of puzzles that it could generate isn't really high. Plus, using other elements instead could add more of a tactical idea to a puzzle, since you need to be aware of the monster's movement patterns and so avoid moving in a way that allows it to move out of position.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Someone (VortexSurfer, I think) did a nice job of making a sokoban-like room in the hold "The Palace of Puzzles", which proves that pushable blocks can be done with yellow doors. Still, I remember hearing this a couple of times, and it's better to have new and creative ideas added than to make old ones work in a new version.

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Mattcrampy
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Yes it could in theory be approximated but come on, who's gonna set up 50 yellow doors + 50 orbs for an approximation? Besides, try to do that and you'll see that there's certain puzzles that can't be replicated.

/me raises hand

One of the few rooms I contributed for JtRH was a huge array of doors and orbs, with roaches and serpents. I know I enjoyed it.

Matt

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eytanz
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joker5 wrote:
By tactical I mean a puzzle with multiple solutions but more complexity than a simple roach horde. Non-tactical puzzles can be seen in Veere's Dungeon: the minimalist puzzles have exactly one way to get through. This would make it necessary to plan the destruction of roaches by placing elements on the map that in effect change the terrain(as far as the roaches are concerned) without placing mimics.

Yes it could in theory be approximated but come on, who's gonna set up 50 yellow doors + 50 orbs for an approximation? Besides, try to do that and you'll see that there's certain puzzles that can't be replicated.

~joker5

Well, sure there are some puzzles that can't be replicated; but that's a rather trivial argument - almost every suggestion you can make will allow for *some* puzzles not replicated without it. Otherwise, the suggestion is clearly a waste of time.

No one is arguing that pushable blocks won't contribute anything to the game. It's just that most of us don't think that what they will contribute is particularly interesting. And they have the huge negative attached to them that pushable blocks have been overdone in many other games.

As far as I can see, it's not DROD's goal to include every puzzle element available. Sure, that limits DROD, but it's through what it can't do that DROD retains its character just as much as through what it can do.

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joker5
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Ah, so it is (again) a 'staying in character because blocks have been overdone' thing. Ah well, I suppose if I want blocks I'll have to add them myself.

~joker5

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wackhead_uk
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That said, DROD at the momewnt is the most forgiving and easy game to mod that I have ever come across. *warm feeling*

Mattcrampy
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Ah, so it is (again) a 'staying in character because blocks have been overdone' thing. Ah well, I suppose if I want blocks I'll have to add them myself.

You seem bitter.

Anyways, wait until you see what wubbas are like before you pass judgement. You can't push them around and put them on special spots so you can go to the next level, but they have utility. Okay, they won't allow for block pushing puzzles, but you can use them for tactical purposes to great, great effect (there's a few rooms in JtRH that use them for just that purpose, and that's only the ones I've seen).

Matt

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joker5
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Point taken; a critter you can freeze by moving just right DOES sound pretty handy... especially a corridor-blocking one.

Note to self: Get Wubbas.

~joker5

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