AlefBet
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Which brings me to my happy news that I'm installing Linux on my computer. *Insert Penguin smilie here* After working with is at our school (Our school has RedHat on the servers and access it through SUN-Ray terminals.), I realized how beautiful and stable it was. Heck, I even got a copy of DROD working on it and showed the system administrator, who seemed to be intriqued by the game).

Well, color me pleased. I'm using Fedora Core 3 every day and Windows every month or two. So far I've been most pleased with Fedora Core 1, but it's discontinued now (almost a year old -- the Fedora project moves at breakneck pace). When I tried Mandrake about six years ago, I wasn't impressed. Nothing wrong with it or missing really, but nothing to distinguish it either, and I was used to Red Hat so I stayed. Of course that was so long ago that it's almost irrelevant, and I was pretty new at Linux at the time too, so the pros might not have stood out to me.

Currently, I'm deciding which distro of Linux I want, but I'm leaning to either Gentoo or Mandrake. However, I may end up going to Gentoo simply because of all the reviews that I've heard from it.

I tried installing Gentoo three times and failed. It's a very involved install. But everyone I know who runs it loves it, and I plan on trying again when I get some time. You also learn a lot about how Linux is set up during the process (even if you don't get it right like I didn't). Another distribution you could consider is Debian/Sarge. I don't use it, but one of my labmates raves about it and wants to switch our lab over to it. The nice thing about Gentoo or Debian is that you don't have to upgrade when a new version comes out. You can install the new components through the package management system. Debian/Woody is a bit of a technical install, too, but I hear that Debian/Sarge is much easier.

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gamer_extreme_101
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AlefBet wrote:
Well, color me pleased.

It's awesome...every day I used Linux at our school added to my new flame-war against Windows. When we first got it, most people were fairly biased against it, saying things like "Get a real OS like Windows" and various other mean, anti-Linux things. However, as soon as I was taught how to install programs using binaries and Makefiles, I fould it a lot better than the "Windows Installshield" program.

I'm using Fedora Core 3 every day and Windows every month or two. So far I've been most pleased with Fedora Core 1, but it's discontinued now (almost a year old -- the Fedora project moves at breakneck pace).

I haven't heard much on the RedHat replacement...how long did you have RedHat before you installed Fedora?

When I tried Mandrake about six years ago, I wasn't impressed. Nothing wrong with it or missing really, but nothing to distinguish it either, and I was used to Red Hat so I stayed.

From what I hear, Mandrake is a resourse hog. I'm running an AMD 450mhz, and it apparently easily meets Gentoo's requirements, although I'm not sure if that's with GUI or without.

I tried installing Gentoo three times and failed. It's a very involved install. But everyone I know who runs it loves it, and I plan on trying again when I get some time. You also learn a lot about how Linux is set up during the process (even if you don't get it right like I didn't).

A huge Linux fan I know was saying that there were multiple ways of installing it that ranged from "Ignorance is Bliss" to "Hardcore compiling". I'll probably start low, but I'll end up installing it later with a higher degree of difficulty.

Another distribution you could consider is Debian/Sarge. I don't use it, but one of my labmates raves about it and wants to switch our lab over to it. The nice thing about Gentoo or Debian is that you don't have to upgrade when a new version comes out. You can install the new components through the package management system. Debian/Woody is a bit of a technical install, too, but I hear that Debian/Sarge is much easier.

I hadn't even looked at the Debian packages, and it may be a bit too late too seeing as I'm currently downloading the ISO for Gentoo. How much do you know about it?

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AlefBet
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:

I'm using Fedora Core 3 every day and Windows every month or two. So far I've been most pleased with Fedora Core 1, but it's discontinued now (almost a year old -- the Fedora project moves at breakneck pace).

I haven't heard much on the RedHat replacement...how long did you have RedHat before you installed Fedora?

I was using Red Hat since around RH7.3, about a year before RH 8 came out. I actually tried Red Hat 5 back in the day, and it was awful, hideous, and unworkable. It was amazing how completely it had improved by Red Hat 7. I continued to use Red Hat 9 for a while after it was discontinued because I was a bit leery of the new Fedora project. But now I would say that anyone using Red Hat on their personal computer will get much the same experience from Fedora, except with the newer stuff. The only thing I don't like about it is upgrading every five months (or ten if you do every other version). No one actually forces you to upgrade, of course, but if you wait, you stop getting software updates for the older stuff. (You can continue to get security updates through the Fedora Legacy project for a while, but I want the new flashy stuff .) The upgrade thing is the big reason I would go with Debian, and one of the reasons I want to go with Gentoo.

[Gentoo:...] A huge Linux fan I know was saying that there were multiple ways of installing it that ranged from "Ignorance is Bliss" to "Hardcore compiling". I'll probably start low, but I'll end up installing it later with a higher degree of difficulty.

There are three levels to install it from, with Level 1 being "I love compiling and specifying everything" and Level 3 being "give me what everyone else uses, all compiled and ready to go." However, that's what you put on the computer once you've set up the basic system. There's a bunch of stuff that goes on before you get to that level. Gentoo's web pages take you through it step-by-step, but it is certainly technical.

I hadn't even looked at the Debian packages, and it may be a bit too late too seeing as I'm currently downloading the ISO for Gentoo. How much do you know about it?

I know about as much as any Linux guy who has someone sitting next to him at work that loves it and talks about it frequently . I've seen it in operation, I've watched part of the install when he did it here in the lab, and I've heard his comments on it.

____________________________
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---

[Last edited by AlefBet at 11-29-2006 02:15 AM]

AlefBet
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A couple of other things about Gentoo:

If you set up with Level 3, that doesn't stop you from being able to customize the whole thing later. You end up with the same basic system either way. It's just that if you're an experienced Gentoo-er and you know you'll be changing a bunch of stuff and rebuilding, you can start with level 1 and configure out of the gate, and if you know you'll be taking the defaults on most stuff, you can take the level 3 install and just change what you want later.

Also, the big philosophy behind Gentoo is to give the user choices. They don't give you a nice clean install program because then you don't get to choose how you want your system set up. Instead, they give you instructions on how to install your system and if you know what you're doing you're free to depart from them wherever you want. That's also one reason everything is source code based, because then you can choose exactly what options and functions you want compiled into your applications and system. They try to streamline their package system (Portage) to make the choice maintenance pretty easy, but you can step in and override any choices you want.

Gerry (trick) can probably talk about Gentoo better than I can, though, since he actually uses it.

And on the subject of Debian: Debian is famous for its package management system (apt). It's so beloved that versions of apt have made their way onto Fedora and Red Hat (and other RPM based distributions), but of course Debian has the original and full apt experience.

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Sounds good. I've finally finished downloading the ISO, meaning that I won't be able to install it until tomorrow at the very earliest. I'll let you know how it goes.

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trick
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The good things about Gentoo is that since nearly everything is built from source, you have complete freedom to customize everything just the way you want it. Ebuilds (scripts that automatically builds and installs stuff for you) make it easy to safely install, upgrade and uninstall everything. Also, if some program you want doesn't have an ebuild yet, it's pretty easy to make one yourself and submit it to the gentoo team so it can be officially included (you can use it yourself in the mean time, of course). The package management system (portage) is very powerful and easily updated. It's very easy to install and set up various services. Also, you have a choice between many different kernels -- either the plain vanilla one, or patched with extra features, extra optimization, extra security, and so on.

The bad things about Gentoo is that since nearly everything is built from source, you have complete freedom from your computer while things are building. Ebuilds make it easy to burn away hours, sometimes days, installing or upgrading something. Also, if some program you want doesn't have an ebuild yet and you submit it (or an upgrade), it may take a long time before it's officially included (in the case of DROD 1.6.6, it's nearing 6 months now -- DROD 1.6.5 is in portage, but that's got a nasty export bug (as in, doesn't work), so I wouldn't really recommend using it...). This is only true for some cathegories, though (security upgrades are usually in before most people knew there was an issue).

But seriously, all in all I think Gentoo is a pretty nice distro, and for me, better than the alternatives I've tried. With other distros you always end up having dependency issues one time or another, specially if you install stuff that isn't part of the official distribution (I used to do that all the time before, but Gentoo seems to have nearly everything I want already ). The biggest disadvantage is having to spend time compiling stuff. You can do other things while things are compiling in the background, of course, but compiling is a very CPU intensive task, and even if you have maximum nice on the compiling (meaning everything else gets priority) it is noticable if you want to play a cpu-intesive game, or play a movie or something (remember there's no hardware DVD players for Linux, so it has to be done in software). Compiling also eats a lot of RAM.

For small things this isn't such a big issue, but huge packages like X or (shudder) KDE takes a huge amount of time to compile. For example, compiling KDE takes at least a full day here (Pentium III 500mhz), maybe a bit more. (I don't upgrade KDE very often, and whenever I do it seems a new version is released the next day ).

There are things that help, though. Emerge can install several things at once and will automagically take care of all dependencies, so you can just start it when you don't have to use your computer and it'll do its thing without any assistance from you. Some things (like mozilla firefox/thunderbird, openoffice, drod , etc) have binary packages, so you don't have to compile them. It may defeat the point of having a source-based distro like gentoo in the first place, but you probably don't want to wait days to compile OpenOffice, and some of these things aren't that customizable anyway (like DROD). Also, ccache can be used to cache compiler output, so that if you're compiling things where only part of the source files changed, it doesn't have to recompile everything and things go much faster (I did a test with the DROD source after installing ccache -- a complete recompile went from 20 minutes to one minute).

I probably shouldn't be using Gentoo on a mere 500mhz CPU, but as I said before, I like it anyway. You might like it as well, of course, but you should be aware of the issues. In any case, if you do go with Gentoo, I'd do a stage 3 install unless you have a fast processor. It might take days otherwise, literally.

Debian is a nice distro as well, but (except for security updates) it's usually outdated. It's got more powerful package management than most other distros (except Gentoo). Mandrake is nice if you want all dirty details hidden away from you and don't want to experiment too much. Slackware is a pretty nice no-nonsense kind of distro, and throws all dirty details in your face (also, its package management system is very basic). Then there's LFS, of course ("Linux From Scratch"), which is a great way to learn how Linux works but is the hardest to install and use (you have to do everything by hand). There's a couple others too (most notably Fedora and SuSE). Distrowatch.com has a fairly complete list with descriptions

- Gerry

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Sorry for the late response.

I just burned the Universal version of Gentoo onto a CD. I am, however, confused when it come to creating partitions for Linux. Right now, I have a 8 GB hard drive with 3 GB free, and the partition is running Win98. From what I've read on the manual, you need to make 3 new partitions, one for Root, and two other. I have a Linux boot CD with Qparted on it, but I have no idea of how I should size the partitions.

Finally, Since I am running a AMD K6-3D 450mhz with 64mb RAM, what kind of Desktop Environment should I be running? I know that both KDE and GNOME take up huge amount of system resources, so should I go with a lesser known one, or stick to the command line version? I would hope to get a destop environment if I can...

[Edited by gamer_extreme_101 at Local Time:12-17-2004 at 11:30 PM: It never hurts to clarify...]

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AlefBet
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Sorry for the late response.

I just burned the Universal version of Gentoo onto a CD. I am, however, confused when it come to creating partitions for Linux. Right now, I have a 8 GB hard drive with 3 GB free, and the partition is running Win98. From what I've read on the manual, you need to make 3 new partitions, one for Root, and two other.

Your swap partition should be around twice as big as the amount of memory you have. So, for example, if you have 128MB memory, you ought to have about 256MB for your swap partition.

I would suggest a figure of about 100MB for your boot partition, although you could probably get away with less. The boot partition on this machine I'm using right now is 100MB and it's 26% full.

The rest should go to your root partition. (Some people do fancier things with their partition scheme, but I'd suggest you just have one big root partition if you're a beginner.)

I have a Linux boot CD with Qparted on it, but I have no idea of how I should size the partitions.

There should be a partitioning tool on the Gentoo live CD that you can use, and there are instructions on how to use it on their website installation walkthru. That starts right here, but the fdisk partitioner stuff is here.

Finally, Since I am running a AMD K6-3D 450mhz with 64mb RAM, what kind of Desktop Environment should I be running? I know that both KDE and GNOME take up huge amount of system resources, so should I go with a lesser known one, or stick to the command line version? I would hope to get a destop environment if I can...

Well, I prefer Gnome to KDE for licensing reasons, and I was running Gnome on a 233MHz laptop with 64MB of ram for a while (although it was the version of Gnome that came with Red Hat 9). It was sluggish and took a while for some applications to start, but it was usable. I've not really used many other desktop environments (at least not at the current level of maturity), so I can't really give advice about any of the others.

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Stefan
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gamer_extreme_101 wrote:
Finally, Since I am running a AMD K6-3D 450mhz with 64mb RAM, what kind of Desktop Environment should I be running? I know that both KDE and GNOME take up huge amount of system resources, so should I go with a lesser known one, or stick to the command line version? I would hope to get a destop environment if I can...

You could try Xfce. It's a lightweight desktop environment, so it might be more suitable for your machine. I've never used it myself, so I cannot really tell you anything about it (or recommend it).

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I'm currently having a small issue with partitioning. I'm trying to resize my one Windows 98 partition into a smaller 4 GB one, but for some reason it isn't working. I've tried using qtparted, but it gave me an error.

Do you have anything else to suggest, or would it be wiser to just wipe it clean and start fresh?

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Stefan
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Did you defragment the drive before you tried to resize it? If you did, then what error was it that qtparted gave you?

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I haven't defraged it in the longest time. The error was along the lines of:

"Error:Invalid ped_file_system_open call"

It's a FAT32 partition, so I'm wondering if it's having issues with that...

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trick
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I tried using qtparted once, but it managed to segfault in the middle of resizing a partition. I've stayed far away from it after that.

If you don't mind a complete lack of anything resembling a graphical user interface and like entering cryptic one-letter commands in the console, fdisk is great. Otherwise, cfdisk shouldn't be too bad either.

- Gerry

[Edited by trick at Local Time:12-22-2004 at 11:23 PM: resizing, not moving]

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Well, I am now officially on my own Gentoo installation! Right now I'm genkernel-ing my hardware simply because I fear manually editing "menuconfig".

Just to satisfy curiosity, I did end up wiping my hard drive because my dad graciously offered to sacrifice some of his HD space to back up my files if I let him play around with Gentoo when I'm done (He has a couple of linux-boxes at his work, but he knows nothing about them). I made a 50MB boot partition along with a 300MB swap (Which is about 4.7 times the amount of physical RAM I have).

Anyways, I'd better continue on. I'm currently running the text-only version of Links, and it's extremly trippy with using arrows for selecting links. Thanks a lot to trick, AlefBet and Stephen for their advice, though.

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Don't forget about Aview - ascii image viewer ! It's cool and pretty much unavailable for other systems.

http://aa-project.sourceforge.net/aview/

On the same site you'll find fun software based on aalib, such as ascii-based software for digital internet cameras (25 fps easily on 56k modem), TV card, and more.
Sages claim you can also find aaQuake and aaQuake2 !

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Well, I have good news and bad news now.

First of all, the installation part is done. The bootloader (GRUB) is working fine, and I've had no problems logging in. However, I'm having issues getting onto the internet (BTW - I'm writing this using the bootable SysRestore CD. I'm not messing with anyone's mind ) I've configured my iface_eth0 set to DHCP, I've installed the DHCPCD client for it, but I think the "hosts" file is where all my problems are coming from. Since this is the only machine I want to set up right now, I set it to:

127.0.0.1 tux.homenetwork tux localhost

but I think I need to add in something else, I just don't know how it should be done using dynamic IP. Any helps on this would be greatly appreciated, especially considering that you can't do emerging without the internet. Thanks.

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AlefBet
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Oh, dear. Network problems were where I got stuck last time I tried to get Gentoo up, too. In my case, though, I think it was a freak problem with my network card. (Something funny about this card makes it not work after a warm start, but I didn't know about it at the time.)

I don't think you need to worry about the hosts file, though. My hosts file only has my own machine listed and a few other machines on my private network. None of those entries are used to connect to the rest of the internet. The hosts file is only really used to supplement or override DNS.

If you have DHCP available on your network and DNS is working, it should work. Unfortunately, I don't know what would be wrong if it doesn't, but if you post the error message(s) you're getting, someone with more knowledge might know what the problem is.

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gamer_extreme_101
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AlefBet wrote:
Oh, dear. Network problems were where I got stuck last time I tried to get Gentoo up, too. In my case, though, I think it was a freak problem with my network card. (Something funny about this card makes it not work after a warm start, but I didn't know about it at the time.)

I'm sure it's not my card. It seems to access the internet fine when I boot off the CD. Then again, I'm sure it auto-detects the network settings when it loads...

If you have DHCP available on your network and DNS is working, it should work. Unfortunately, I don't know what would be wrong if it doesn't, but if you post the error message(s) you're getting, someone with more knowledge might know what the problem is.

I can't give you an exact reading of the error, but it was, from what I could understand, the equivelent of a 404 error in Windows. It was trying to download dependencies for Xfce (Which it's doing now, although I had to boot from the CD to do it), but it just attempted each time and failed each time. I can't give you much more info than this, but I will try.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Well, I found out exactly what is wrong...netmount and net.eth0 are in rc, but they aren't running, and I have no idea of how to start them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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AlefBet
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Find out what happens when you type:
/sbin/ifup eth0

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By the way, have you ever tried the Knoppix Linux?

It's auto-start from CD, no insatll needed, and detects almost most of the hardware.
You might want to download it for testing...

There's also a Games Knoppix CD with some Linux (freely-distributable) games out.
I think we should try to get DROD:AE (not JtRH) on it as well...

Note: In Germany, you're not allowed to give this ISO/CD to people under age of 18. Although I don't see any violent games in there.

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AlefBet wrote:
Find out what happens when you type:
/sbin/ifup eth0

"ifup" No such file or directory.

Anyways I figured out the problem...for some reason, netmount needed a /lib/modules/<kernel name>/modules.dep file, and I didn't have it. I'm currently in the process of fixing it.

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Well, I guess it isn't what I thought it was. I had gone back into the menuconfig and found that I hadn't selected my NIC, so I did that, rebuilt the kernel, but it still isn't working on me. I've tried emerging dhcpcd again, but that didn't help. I'm just going to try emerging coldplug, but if that doesn't work then I may try and use genkernel.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Excuse the triple-post, but I have it working!! Whoo-ha!

Turns out that adding coldplug to the boot group is what it needed, meaning that for some strange and bizarre reason it wasn't finding my NIC properly. The only problem I have now is that the VGA statement isn't seeming to work in GRUb, but that's the least of my concern, personally.

Bow for the horribly long and tedious process of emerging Xfce (Most of the pain comes from the xorg dependency, which is gigantic). Needless to say, I'll be grabbing DROD once Xfce's up. Thanks all!

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AlefBet
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Excellent.

I guess Gentoo doesn't put ifup in the /sbin directory. Hmm. Have to file that away in the in-case-I-need-it-again file.

Nice you have it up, though. I'm going to have to get Gentoo up myself and join the elite club in the next several months.

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Hoo-boy...dependencies are nasty little buggers, aren't they? I had xorg installed in a bit more than 5 hours. Anyways, I have about 2 more dependencies left on Xfce, and then I'll try and figure it out.

I am, still, having issues setting the framebuffer in GRUB. I added the vga value right after the kernel line, but it still won't change, leaving me stuck in the dreaded resolution of 640x480. It's just a minor concern, but it'd be nice if someone smart knew how to fix it. I do have framebuffer installed in the kernel, but still doesn't want to work for me, and it's weirder that it worked on the first installation I had (I had to reinstall it once...long story behind that), meaning that something changed. Who knows?

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AlefBet
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Incidentally, I'm right now in the process of switching my work machine from Fedora Core 3 to Debian/Sarge. The guy who administers our lab is concerned/tired of the upgrade process involved in using a distribution that comes out with a new major version every so often. (Upgrading 30 cluster machines every six months or even every year isn't a relishing thought.) So he's encouraging the lab to switch to a distribution without a jarring upgrade cycle. He likes Debian, and I'm about to see how well I like it.

I'm going to stick with Fedora Core at home and on my laptop, though, unless I'm totally wowed by Debian. I still plan on switching to Gentoo when I get some time.

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AlefBet wrote:
I'm going to stick with Fedora Core at home and on my laptop, though, unless I'm totally wowed by Debian. I still plan on switching to Gentoo when I get some time.

I found an interesting site a while back that had every Linux distros pros and cons. It's extremly informative, and is actually what convinced me to move to Gentoo. The link is at DistroWatch.org. It's perfect for anyone interested in Linux.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Continued from another topic:

Stefan wrote:
...(mostly because I've been installing Gentoo Linux, but that is all off topic).

I remember you mentioning that you'd install it a while back. How's it going? If I recall correctly, you're doing a Stage 1, so I'd be interested to hear about it.

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Yes, I did a Stage 1 install, and I must say, it's been a lot of fun.

I got KDE up and running about a week ago (and DROD installed, of course), but there's still much to be done. Sound is working, but not yet the way I want it, and I haven't got direct rendering to work yet either. There's also some issues with ACPI unresolved, and some small configuration problems here and there... I'll probably recompile the kernel a few times more (I've already done it at least 15 times) before I'm happy with it.

And about the framebuffer-thing you had problems with a while back: do you want just a higher resolution, or do you want a splash image / console background image to go with it? If the latter, look here. That worked for me.

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