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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : Hundred Levels of Horror (More reasonable remake of JtRH)
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azb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
I don't know how you made a roach get stuck on 27,15; the bombs should blow up all of the roaches in that section, because the force arrows should point against the wall, with the "flow" of the bomb explosion.

I will make the entrance clearable on the first pass, since you said it is a problem regarding scores and that it doesn't record the effort you put in the first pass - only the fuse step on the second pass.

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[Last edited by azb at 08-21-2020 01:32 PM : Added "should"]
08-21-2020 at 01:26 PM
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KituU
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
Hi, restored to exit stairs in Level 51 to replay level 52 from the beginning (in latest version 22)
Now Halph is not appearing in level 52 2W
08-22-2020 at 10:25 PM
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azb
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Okay, I got it fixed by making a force arrow beyond the green door, and then having him not "End on room exit" until you go on the arrow. Right now due to the size of the file with all the voice lines, it is a little slow exporting, but I think I should have it in 2 minutes or so.

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08-23-2020 at 01:43 PM
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azb
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Okay, having it beyond the green door makes the room impossible because of the orbs behind the trapdoor, so instead I will move the force arrows to block the exit of the entrance hallway, and have Halph "End on room exit" after that point.

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08-23-2020 at 02:03 PM
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KituU
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Hi, currently stuck at 85 level 1N1E

some notes
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08-29-2020 at 08:47 PM
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azb
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For 85 1N1E:

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Please request a demo if you still can't solve the room.

I fixed the other issues as well just now, except for level 58 1S1W, since I want to stick to the JtRH engine, although I could post a challenge on the challenges board if the hold gets published

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08-31-2020 at 04:47 PM
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KituU
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Hi,
72 level 1E : decoy may still block Slayer entrance, place decoy at the entrance , sword south, slayer not appearing
09-01-2020 at 04:42 AM
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bbb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (+2)  
(This post is referring to version 23.)

General advice for finalizing the hold:

Don't rush the testing of the hold. The longer you wait, more people might test the hold, and find more problems before release.

If you change a room, make sure to test it well, and play the level again in the game. Don't assume that it is just a small change, and can't break anything. This is doubly true when you change or fix scripts. As always, it is not a good sign if you can't be bothered to play your room again.

Don't change rooms (usually) to prevent harder challenging solutions. Be liberal about adding scripted challenges. Challenges don't have to be hard in order to be good. Just because I didn't recommend a challenge doesn't mean I think they shouldn't be added. I didn't systematically check every possible challenge and evaluate if it is good. I only noted the challenges I noticed and often felt natural, and I think these challenges I recommended are all reasonable.


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09-01-2020 at 02:54 PM
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azb
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Thank you for the fixes and advice bbb. I make sure to playtest my rooms after I complete them, but in some instances like in Level 25 1E, I would not be able to find the unintended solution myself, because I would be overwhelmed by the horde when testing.

I also published the earlier holds early because it looked like not many people were interested, but I suppose I can wait a longer time (say, 1 year) before publishing holds early.

I used the JtRH engine for the "old school" aesthetic, but I suppose it would be more logical/reasonable of me to use the TSS engine, because I can make the same exact puzzles in both engines, with added features in the TSS engine such as tar transparency and scripted challenges.

I fixed most of the back tracking and speech problems and when I tested the rooms, all of the unintended solutions (including the early scoring in levels 2 and 3 entrance) to the best of my ability; the only backtracking issues I did not fix are the tar and mud based ones, as I am not sure if there are any 2.0 era elements I can use to lock the player in until they kill extra babies.

I also chose not to fix some of them by design rather than because I didn't have the proper tools to do so, in particular:

* Level 3 1E: While you normally should let the player explore the level freely, allowing them to exit the room uncleared after hitting the orb wouldn't work here because the player could also camp at the entrances/exits of the room and smite most of the roaches, and make the rest of them not a problem either as they are blocked off by the wall.

* Level 12 Entrance second complaint I am confused about; could you please send a demo explaining the problem?

* Level 12 1S1E I intentionally made harder, as other people were saying it was too easy and they could mash Q + W in one spot.

* Level 13 Entrance: Halph has "End on room exit" before he moves; even if he might not visibly move due to the trapdoors, he should not be there when you return

* Level 25 1S1W: although it does not explicitly feature invisibility potions, involves manipulation of monsters and so fits the theme of the level in that sense.

* Level 32 secret room: even though level skips might not be featured in many modern holds, I added one here as a reference to the level skips in the original JtRH hold.

* Level 72 locks not preventing return: this is intentional, because it would be a major backtracking problem otherwise. I designed them so that they should only prevent going to the next room without the Slayer, in case you managed to kill him yourself or with a decoy.

Finally,

Level 84 1S I did fix, but exiting back up north after killing the monsters was the intended solution. However, I changed it to exiting south by adding two evil eyes at the bottom.

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[Last edited by azb at 09-01-2020 10:47 PM : Forgot Level 3 1E]
09-01-2020 at 08:55 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (+2)  
At least in the future, can you list the version numbers in the changelog?
but in some instances like in Level 25 1E, I would not be able to find the unintended solution myself, because I would be overwhelmed by the horde when testing.
You should ask yourself about every room what your assumptions are, and what would happen if the room was broken. In most cases, it just means the player can solve the room a hard way (which can either become a scripted challenge, noted in game, or ignored) or an easy way (which can be fixed if caught on time), but does not affect the rest of the game. In other cases, such as in this room, breaking the room allows skipping rooms, which you can identify even if you can't break it yourself, and even if you don't know if it is possible.

The obvious solution in this case is to add another blue door in the following room which solves the sequence breaking issue. That should be done even if you choose to add more roaches to the room to prevent this breakage. (I don't think you should. This is a challenging break.)

Since I found that it is possible, you can add a scripted challenge next to the second blue door about reaching it when it is still closed.
I used the JtRH engine for the "old school" aesthetic, but I suppose it would be more logical/reasonable of me to use the TSS engine, because I can make the same exact puzzles in both engines, with added features in the TSS engine such as tar transparency and scripted challenges.
Most people will anyway play on TSS, so they have tar transparency and unlimited undo. Scripted challenges are good. You can consider the hold as a tribute to JtRH 5.0.
the only backtracking issues I did not fix are the tar and mud based ones, as I am not sure if there are any 2.0 era elements I can use to lock the player in until they kill extra babies.
Add arrows facing in next to the green doors. You are then safe as long as the player can return with the room unsolved to the room entrance. (You might introduce unintended solutions by allowing the player to solve from the other direction, but in most cases that won't be a problem.) As before, consider where there might be a problem, even if you don't know how to do that. (I would guess L60:1W is in that category, which is challenge worthy.)
* Level 3 1E: While you normally should let the player explore the level freely, allowing them to exit the room uncleared after hitting the orb wouldn't work here because the player could also camp at the entrances/exits of the room and smite most of the roaches, and make the rest of them not a problem either as they are blocked off by the wall.
I am referring to before hitting the orb. You can leave the room, but can't continue because of the force arrows in the entrance room. Adding east arrows in the north passage, west arrows in the south, and south arrows between them to the west of the other arrows should be safe.
* Level 72 locks not preventing return: this is intentional, because it would be a major backtracking problem otherwise. I designed them so that they should only prevent going to the next room without the Slayer, in case you managed to kill him yourself or with a decoy.
You can kill the slayer, return to the previous room, and go through again. You want to make sure the rooms are solved with the slayer active.
Level 84 1S I did fix, but exiting back up north after killing the monsters was the intended solution. However, I changed it to exiting south by adding two evil eyes at the bottom.
I didn't see what you changed yet, but forcing the player to solve going south might be too hard. If the intended solution was to return north, leave it. (You can fix the issue of not having Halph hit the orb.)
09-02-2020 at 09:01 AM
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azb
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Okay, I will make versions clear in the changelog, and update the hold according to your suggestions. I am thinking to fix Level 72 being able to kill the Slayer and go back, I can add a yellow door cage around the monsters, with an orb that opens the cage and closes an open yellow door on the entrance to the room. I also notice that if you solve the room without the decoy, it is possible to break the lock by placing a decoy on one of the orbs; I will make those passageways all trapdoors.

I am not sure what you mean by adding force arrows pointing in for the tarstuff issues, as I believe that would probably just prevent the player from entering the next room entirely; do you think it would be reasonable to get rid of the green doors to allow the player to go back, while still preventing the player from leaving the level unsolved due to the blue doors at the end?

I will also get rid of the evil eyes in level 84 1S, in the spirit of preserving the original intended solution, and make going south a challenge rather than mandatory.

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[Last edited by azb at 09-02-2020 01:00 PM : Level 72 additional problem]
09-02-2020 at 12:58 PM
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azb
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I added the majority of the challenges that bbb suggested; the only ones that I don't know how to implement are the Level 7 Entrance challenge, which I know you can do but it requires more complicated scripting, and challenges like Level 8 whole or using the Slayer to kill the roaches in 9 entrance, because DROD currently does not check if a specific entity type is stabbed, or if a specific entity type (like the Player) kills something.

I do know how to add multiple potion challenges, but I didn't do them right now because I wanted to add and get feedback for the challenges gradually, like with the regular rooms, so I only added the most basic challenges scripting-wise.

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09-05-2020 at 01:40 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (+3)  
I finished the voice acting for the entire hold now, including the demo room in the postmastery level.

I also added a challenge scroll where I intended to originally but had an oversight, Level 47 2S1W.

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09-29-2020 at 02:42 PM
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azb
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Does anybody have commentary on any of the challenges, or anything else they think needs fixing? How about the voice acting, does it sound reasonable for each character or does it sound awkwardly done for any lines?

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02-08-2023 at 11:37 AM
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azb
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Does anyone believe I should move on to publishing the hold to the official Holds board, if they have nothing to add about the challenges, voice acting, or actual hold/puzzles and solutions within?

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04-22-2023 at 07:52 PM
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azb
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Hi, unfortunately when I try to "Submit Hold" for publishing to the Holds board because I feel all the challenges I can add are added, and I have polished every known issue I can think of, it just doesn't do anything period after it shows the pressed button and I release it (obviously with the cursor still on like any sensible button-clicker).

Does anyone know why the "Submit hold" button isn't working for me?

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08-18-2023 at 08:11 PM
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azb
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Cause I don't think I want to add the multiple potions challenges after all (too tedious and hard for me personally), can I please have help understanding why the button to submit my hold isn't working?

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09-07-2023 at 07:52 PM
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kieranmillar
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azb wrote:
Hi, unfortunately when I try to "Submit Hold" for publishing to the Holds board because I feel all the challenges I can add are added, and I have polished every known issue I can think of, it just doesn't do anything period after it shows the pressed button and I release it (obviously with the cursor still on like any sensible button-clicker).

Does anyone know why the "Submit hold" button isn't working for me?
My best guess is that the site only allows you to have one thing in the submission queue at a time and you have The Tower of Chaos in the queue. I don't know if this is an actual limit of the site but its my best guess.
09-07-2023 at 08:58 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (+1)  
Backtracking issue: If you exit L60 1S1W east without clearing 1W, you cannot return to 1W.

This room and 1S1W still have the issue where Halph's script can End before the room is clear so he won't reappear on re-entering the room, even though you claimed to have fixed this in your post of 31/8/2020. Always test changes after making them!

L82 Entrance is impossible to exit after clearing the room.

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09-11-2023 at 04:01 AM
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azb
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The last issue I call 100% nonsense on because I know with the gap in the bombs you can exit, but the other things I will fix ASAP.

It does make sense that when I have one hold in the queue, other ones are stuck waiting.

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09-11-2023 at 09:56 PM
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Nuntar
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azb wrote:
The last issue I call 100% nonsense on because I know with the gap in the bombs you can exit

Yes, with the gap in the bombs. Which wasn't there when I downloaded the hold yesterday.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you fixed this years ago on your local copy and forgot to upload the fixed version. But again, things like that would be much less likely to happen if you put in the time to check for yourself.

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09-11-2023 at 10:49 PM
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azb
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Does anyone have any additional feedback on anything they think needs fixing? I think those are the only issues as of right now that Nuntar pointed out in his latest post.

Again, the overall hack and slash nature of the hold is intentional, but I made sure this time it's done with extra pizazz and has extra presentability to it, compared to Secret of the Blank Dungeon.

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10-05-2023 at 12:38 PM
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Nuntar
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What sort of feedback are you looking for? Going to be honest here, playing through 100 levels is a pretty big time investment, and it's hard to be motivated given that you don't have the best track record of listening to feedback. Of course, you don't have to take every suggestion (especially as some of mine are going to be directly opposed to bbb's; we have very different design philosophies) but it would be nice to know whether there's any point to providing general feedback or whether you're anxious to rush it through HA.

Anyway, here's Levels 1 to 10 as a starting-point:

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10-05-2023 at 05:53 PM
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Nuntar
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Okay, here's Levels 11 to 30. This includes a couple of serious backtracking and checkpointing issues, so please pay attention especially to things marked in bold.

My overall impression is that there are some good rooms here, but the hold is showing signs of being stretched out too much. You were determined to have 100 levels, but you didn't have enough ideas for it. There are way too many cases here where I'd enter a new room and it would be the same as the last room. Yes, KDD has Level 6, but there the layouts stayed the same, and what you have to do changed with each iteration. Your Level 13, for example, changes the layout in every room, but all the rooms feel the same to play. And it's not just L13; most levels here repeat rooms. And there is also repetition in the overall structure: every new element is introduced by showing how it combines with roach queen hordes.

I know this may be disheartening when you've gotten this far and actually finished building a 100-level hold, but I'm confident the hold would be a lot stronger if you took the time to make these rooms more varied, or if you are out of ideas, cut some levels out.

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10-06-2023 at 07:29 PM
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azb
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Okay, I got all the issues you posted about fixed to the best of my ability.

And no, I am not going to rush the testing of the hold even though I did that for the Blank Dungeon series, because I learned to actually understand feedback better and make it more suitable for players.

That being said, I only fixed things like backtracking issues, presentability issues, and overly tedious levels, as well as added checkpoints and the challenges you suggested,

Because some of the things you talk about, like repetitiveness, is more your own personal opinion and I intentionally made the rooms in those cases to have the same design with the only variation being a slight twist to make the solution different.

I also re-tried/re-tested level 19, and I could get the setup pretty fine that the mass of wubbas is meant as a large moving wall to protect yourself from the swarms of roaches, and they shouldn't get in the way if you manipulate them properly.

Similarly, I intentionally made level 9's challenge extremely hard compared to the actual room, cause challenges in many holds are often much harder than the rooms themselves are. I thought that's why they're called challenges?

I get your point though, that challenges shouldn't be overly tedious, but if you have the proper knowledge of Slayer removal from other holds it's not too bad.

The level 25 exit skip I was told to fix earlier, so I intentionally added the blue door there to force you to complete the rest of the level before moving on.

The challenge is hard, but it is doable. Again, that's why it's a challenge or otherwise there wouldn't be any incentive for it - it is intentionally much more harder than just solving the room using the potion.

Do you know if you have any feedback from level 31 onward?

Again, with your referencing me not having a good track record of listening to feedback, I listen to most suggestions and make revisions, but if you're complaining about simple blocky layouts or too much combat rooms I would point out that it's just not your thing, and my intended audience is the combat fanatics.

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10-08-2023 at 04:59 PM
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azb
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Hi, does anyone have anything to add about any bugs/problems, unintended solutions, or otherwise rooms that are too difficult or easy, or anything else you can think of?

Remember however, comments about blocky room layouts or the repetitive nature of many rooms will be ignored, because it is intentional that the hold is focused directly on the combat aspect of things and so it is intentional for two or more rooms to be basically the same with the only difference being the type and/or amount of monsters.

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01-01-2024 at 12:18 AM
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bbb
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Played until Level 82, which is unclearable. (Please update the hold instead of making a new copy.)

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01-07-2024 at 05:04 PM
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azb
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Hi, some of the issues you mentioned like Level 82 bombs being inaccessible or Level 25 1S scroll missing are fixed in the latest version, I know because I tested those issues myself before publishing (the version with the themes of the levels changed).

However, I did do the proper updates for the stuff that wasn't there already, like Level 29 entrance being fixed, although some required scripting I couldn't figure out, or were too tedious, level 51's leaving the goblin for last stuff, so I just decided not to implement them; everything else you suggested should be fixed and/or added however.

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01-08-2024 at 06:20 PM
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azb
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Does anyone have any other issues that they think need fixing, that weren't addressed in the last post?

Remember, complaints about tedious monster cleaning or repetive
and similar rooms or blocky layouts will be ignored, as those are all intentional, but anything else like a room being too hard or having an unintended solution I will listen to.

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02-11-2024 at 12:38 PM
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bbb
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L12: 2S1E: isn't clearable now. Halph's path is blocked.
03-25-2024 at 06:59 AM
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