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azb
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File: Hundred Levels of Horror Ver 28.hold (10.7 MB)
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icon Hundred Levels of Horror (+3)  
Hello everyone,

I am still working on the Final Reckoning for those still interested in the Blank Dungeon series, but I decided given how unpolished the early installments were to do a more balanced and fair remake of the JtRH hold, this one in 100 extra short and sweet levels instead of 15 complicated ones. So far, I have completed up to halfway (level 50).

As usual, please let me know if you find any fault in the hold, whether it be something too tedious, something too difficult or something else. :)

Changelog:

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If you enjoyed the other holds in
the Blank Dungeon series, please publicly test The Final Reckoning today!

[Last edited by azb at 09-29-2020 02:40 PM : 09/29/2020 Update]
04-12-2020 at 02:55 AM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (+2)  
Played up to Level 10 quickly. Pretty fun for the most part, but some parts could do with rethinking.

Firstly, I don't understand why you're trying to do a "remake" of JtRH. Your writing is nowhere near as good as Caravel Team's, and this is shown at its starkest when you cover the same storyline. If you did another "tribute" with your own storyline and characters -- not necessarily part of the Blank Dungeon series, it could be its own thing -- then this wouldn't bother me as much as it does.

L1 1S1W: "could have gone", not "went". In case this is deliberate to make Beethro sound simpler, it still doesn't work because that's not part of his natural idiom.

All levels need checkpoints in the room with the exit stairs.

L1 1S drags on too long. Cut out one pair of orbs.

L2 2S1W is just holding down the battle key for each group of roaches -- nothing interesting is added when moving from the first group to the second to the third.

L3 is good. Each room has its own character, requires different tactics, and is quick and fun to play through, and for a new player, each would add a little bit to their understanding of the game. Try to make more levels like this!

L3 1W needs a checkpoint next to the orb.

L4 can be solved in its entirety without going through tunnels, only using them as obstacles. That's a valid use of tunnels and one that should be shown, but it shouldn't be every room.

L4 Entrance is much too hard for an intro room, because there is so little space, and if you try using the tunnel, you will have your back to the roaches and not enough time to turn to face them. I was only able to solve this without going through the tunnel.

L6 1S: consider adding a green door at (7,9) for easier traversal after the room is clear.

L6 1S1E is hard but a really nice room.

L7 is a breather level after getting through L6 but that's probably a good thing.

I don't really know what difficulty level you are aiming for with this hold... something like L9 would be too much for new players meeting the Slayer for the first time, but I found it an interesting challenge. The Slayer can be quite a nuisance in boxy horde rooms like this because of the way he interferes with natural tactics.

L10 Entrance is much too hard for the first introduction of Slayer-pushing.

The theme of L10 seems to be narrow gaps, which are actually really hard to deal with because you have to funnel the roaches out through the gap before you can get in yourself, and the Slayer finds it really easy to interfere with this process. I was able to beat 1W after a lot of effort, but 1E was just too much for me. Maybe another time :P

L10 1S, on the other hand, is weirdly easy. I guess you forgot to put force arrows under the queens?

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04-12-2020 at 05:52 AM
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azb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (+2)  
Thank you for all of your comments! I fixed all the problems you brought up to the best of my ability. Please let me know if you find anything else as usual :)

Regarding the title, you are right that it is not exactly a remake; I probably should have chosen my wording more carefully and said "tribute" like the Blank Dungeon series. My aim was not to make a 100% beginner friendly hold, but rather to make a fun hold that progresses from easy to intermediate to difficult (like the original JtRH).

The reason why I chose "remake" was because it follows a similar but not exact plot line to JtRH, and a similar but not exact level progression and theme(s) to JtRH. Should I change the word to "tribute" to avoid confusion?

You are right that the early levels you brought up are unreasonably difficult, so I got them toned down slightly.

Also, when I hear you guys bring up dialog/speech, I would be willing to change it to what you want if you have concrete suggestions. Were you just referring to making the characters resembling their original diction and personality more accurately?

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[Last edited by azb at 04-12-2020 03:37 PM]
04-12-2020 at 01:41 PM
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Nuntar
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
quote:
azb wrote: The reason why I chose "remake" was because it follows a similar but not exact plot line to JtRH, and a similar but not exact level progression and theme(s) to JtRH. Should I change the word to "tribute" to avoid confusion?

No, my complaint was not about confusion, or about your choice of word. I just don't think you should imitate JtRH as closely as you are doing.

So far, the story beats follow JtRH almost exactly: Beethro and Halph go into a dungeon and get separated, then meet up again when Halph starts being used as a puzzle element; Beethro meets a Negotiator, who starts telling him about the Rooted Empire, then gets cross and warns Beethro that a Slayer will be despatched; Beethro gets separated from Halph again and has a run-in with the Slayer.

And again, I don't think there's anything wrong as such with doing this. I just really don't think it's a good idea. By being such a close imitator, you are forcing your player to draw comparisons between this hold and the real thing, and inevitably that comparison makes your hold look worse; whereas if you made it your own thing with your own story, its faults would be a lot more forgivable.

quote:
You are right that the early levels you brought up are unreasonably difficult, so I got them toned down slightly.

I've taken a look, and the changes seem pretty good. I am able to complete Level 10 now. 10 Entrance no longer requires Slayer pushing at all, but the endgame of 10 1E does, so I guess you intended to introduce it there; and with this as an extra step needed to get out of the room after completing it, it's reasonable that the main body of 1E has been made easier.

I can't get anywhere with L11 Entrance. I can't see a way to get into the outermost square without having roaches on both sides; and I can't bring the Slayer with me and have him block off one side, because then he will kill me while I'm dealing with roaches on the other.

quote:
Also, when I hear you guys bring up dialog/speech, I would be willing to change it to what you want if you have concrete suggestions. Were you just referring to making the characters resembling their original diction and personality more accurately?

Not really, no. I don't want to sound rude, but you're just not as good a writer as the people who wrote the dialogue for the main games. Reading your dialogue between Beethro and the Negotiator just doesn't make them come alive, or engage me in the story and the world, in the same way as the original. And this isn't something I can easily help you with with a list of suggestions; it's something you would have to develop gradually through practice.

But again, I wouldn't mind this so much if you were doing your own story; then at least I wouldn't know where the story was going and I would have curiosity to keep me interested. When you're just remaking a story I already know, the writing has to give me something new and interesting to keep me involved; otherwise I'm just thinking "I've already seen this before, and seen it done better."

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04-13-2020 at 12:34 AM
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azb
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Okay, that makes a lot more sense now. I know not everybody has the same tastes when it comes to characters or stories, so I don't take any offense to your dislike/distaste (what might strike one person as flat might be interesting to someone else). :)

I'm honestly okay speech-wise being a "diet" or "poor man's" version of the official hold; I am more catering to a casual/gameplay-oriented audience rather than a hardcore fan.

My main thing as far as story goes is not to make a very epic or intricate story line as I am more of a game play based person myself, but use the story as a sort of way to keep the action going. I get that since the thing it is based off of is so easy to access, it is hard not to be reminded of it and how intricate that story line was.

I will fix L10 some more, but you are right in that I intended 1E to introduce the gimmick of using the Slayer to do your bidding, which L11 uses more extensively.

Hint for L11 Entrance outermost door:

Click here to view the secret text


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[Last edited by azb at 04-13-2020 01:29 AM]
04-13-2020 at 01:06 AM
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bbb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
Imitating a good story is a reasonable strategy for a story which isn't that important.

The secret on L18 is clearly not solvable.

I don't think the tar in L37 2S1E is clearable, blocking progress.
04-20-2020 at 12:18 PM
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azb
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Okay, I got them all fixed to the best of my ability. Since I said above that I was aiming for for an action oriented audience, I decided that I would get rid of the speech altogether, since it wasn't advancing the plot in any meaningful way.

Out of curiosity, is there anything you found in the levels between L10 and L18 or L18 and L37 that you would like me to fix?

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[Last edited by azb at 04-20-2020 04:38 PM : Requesting feedback on other levels]
04-20-2020 at 04:27 PM
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bbb
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I think I prefer it with the speech, though it doesn't matter much.

The L18 secret is still not solvable. The arrows at (4,22) and (25,22) prevent returning to the exit.

I hope to write comments about some of the rooms. There are a few rooms which need slight corrections.

The hold (so far) is a relatively easy hold. I think this is good. It often seems like high quality holds are created and tested by top solvers, with the result, as expected, being very hard holds. On the other hand, easy holds are often created by beginner delvers, and are not tested enough, if at all. There seem to be few quality holds which are not very difficult.

That being said, it is natural that such holds have rooms which can "technically" be considered to be broken. However, in the context of an easy hold, that is very often ok. Such rooms are appropriate for the hold level, should not be fixed, and the extra solution can be used for challenges.

I'll try to list some challenges which can be added if I am not afraid you will try to "fix" the rooms.
04-20-2020 at 09:33 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
The reason why I got rid of speech is as Nuntar and you pointed out, most people already know the hold I am referencing's script, so it is not critical/essential to the gameplay for the player to see again.

:doh I fixed L18 secret again. I didn't account for the arrows under the roach queens.

I am open to challenge suggestions as well as problems and inconveniences for rooms. :) Since I am using the JtRH engine, I would use a plain scroll rather than a challenge script.

My aim as far as difficulty goes is to make a hold that progresses from total easiness (1 or 2 brains) in the first few levels to "makes you think but still easy" (3 brains) in some of the later levels (levels 5 to 25) to intermediate difficulty (about 4 or 5 brains, levels 25 to 49) to "complex but not LarryMurk" (6 or 7 brains, levels 51 to 100), in a similar manner to how the hold it was based off of progressed.

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[Last edited by azb at 04-21-2020 03:34 PM : Difficulty explanation]
04-21-2020 at 03:28 PM
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azb
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Okay, I got a lot more levels added - 51 through 79. I tried to make it progressively more difficult compared to the previous levels in my experience, but you can always tell me if you feel the difficulty transition is off either between levels or rooms. :)

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05-27-2020 at 10:14 PM
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bbb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
Level 56 2N: You can't reach the potion within 30 moves.
05-31-2020 at 05:55 AM
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azb
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Okay, I will fix that. I also worked on levels 80 through 82 after the update, so you can play those levels if you would like to a well.

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[Last edited by azb at 05-31-2020 02:31 PM : Comment about extra levels]
05-31-2020 at 02:30 PM
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azb
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Okay, I got levels 83 through 86 added as well, if any of you guys would like to test them.

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06-06-2020 at 07:12 PM
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KituU
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Hi
Click here to view the secret text

06-07-2020 at 08:37 PM
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azb
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4th level: That was an intentional design choice; since it is very early in the hold I wanted to make it very easy for the player

7th and 8th levels: I had Halph in the rooms he didn't need to be for thematic reasons; I just decided to get rid of him entirely instead in the rooms in question

All the rest: Fixed unintentional exits and entrances as best as I could. I'm not sure how to fix the "stand in place to kill the roach queens" problem, however, since I'm not sure how to use the limited room space to make a scenario that requires more movement. Do you guys have any suggestions?

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[Last edited by azb at 06-08-2020 04:32 PM : Added clarity to my 7th and 8th levels part]
06-08-2020 at 03:17 PM
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KituU
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
Hi, can't go any further:

Click here to view the secret text


Click here to view the secret text

06-15-2020 at 12:36 AM
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bbb
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quote:
KituU wrote:
Hi, can't go any further:

Click here to view the secret text




There is a problem in many rooms (including the one mentioned above) that Halph appears from a script which is "end"ed, so he doesn't appear if you enter and exit the room before solving it. (I guess you entered from the west previously.) You will have to resolve a bit of the level.

Once you redo that, the other problem will solve itself.
06-15-2020 at 04:54 AM
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azb
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quote:
KituU wrote:
Hi, can't go any further:

Click here to view the secret text


Click here to view the secret text



L27: I didn't mean to have dialogue in there to begin with; I cut it out

L53/L52 1S1W: you can't solve L53 because the evil eye room is linked to L52 1S1W; after you take the stairs in 1S1W you will be put directly in front of the eye, causing you to be able to kill it. Do you know how you have Halph unable to appear in the first place?

I believe if you come to the puzzle the first time with the three goblins still alive, Halph is scripted to "End on room exit" but you cannot exit the room without first manipulating one of the goblins to step on the sandy area in order to release Halph.

Do you know a way to prevent the player from accidentally going back up once they finish it once... maybe with an orb system and yellow door?

EDIT: Okay now, I can see that from the above the player can accidentally enter from the west, causing Halph to end once the player comes back out. I have fixed it with an orb lock system like I have in L9.

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[Last edited by azb at 06-15-2020 03:58 PM : Figured out problem]
06-15-2020 at 03:53 PM
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azb
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Okay, after experimenting around I found there is no way to prevent you from going back up the stairs once you kill the eye and re-enter from the east that doesn't also block you from approaching the first time, so I decided to just take a more simpler approach and get rid of the "End in room exit" for Halph's script.

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[Last edited by azb at 06-15-2020 04:15 PM]
06-15-2020 at 04:14 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
Okay, I added levels 87 through 91 as well, if anybody is still interested in playing the later levels in the hold. :)

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06-30-2020 at 03:08 PM
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azb
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icon Re: Hundred Levels of Horror (0)  
I finished all the rest of the hold now; I am working on the postmastery level as well, but I haven't completed it yet. I added a plot and dialogue to it that is somewhat related to JtRH, but it is its own story now instead of copying the JtRH plot piece by piece.

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07-07-2020 at 07:41 PM
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azb
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Okay, I finished the postmastery level as well in full now, and I have added voice acting to levels 1 thru 24.

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[Last edited by azb at 07-19-2020 06:41 PM : Wrong final level number]
07-19-2020 at 06:36 PM
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azb
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I have added voice acting for every level except 98 through 100; I haven't been able to get to those ones yet, although I did add an intercom noise for level 98 exit.

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08-09-2020 at 07:51 PM
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KituU
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Hi, still can't get through 52 level 1S1W:
is Halph supossed to appear here? , because there is no way to open yellow door to kill the evil eye
08-19-2020 at 04:42 PM
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bbb
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87 Entrance can't be cleared.

One of the roaches spawns out of range of the bomb.

I don't really like the style of rooms where you solve the room and then return with a trivial solution to clear it. (I know it appears in JtRH. That doesn't make it a good idea.) It makes the default demo behavior (and scoring) not helpful.

1N is excusable, since the second pass is non trivial, even though the first pass is harder. I would prefer such a room to be solved both times, and letting a seeding beacon unclear it between passes. You might not want to do that, because of the JtRH theme.

You can modify the entrance to move the brain after the last yellow door, and add a green door to prevent backtracking issues.

Some off topic points.

Click here to view the secret text


Click here to view the secret text

08-19-2020 at 06:57 PM
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azb
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I don't know if you simply have an older version of the hold, but I don't think I changed 87 Entrance since I first built it. Did you make sure to step on the fuse one turn immediately after you enter?

I tested it, and even if you wait on the far left where the fuse end is, the roaches can't escape the explosion quickly enough to render the room unsolvable.

Regarding scores: I don't know if there's a way to render the scores non-trivial using the JtRH engine, but do you think it might be a good idea to edit the Entrance in order to have the player do work and kill the roaches with the sword, wiring the bombs only to blow up the brain?

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08-20-2020 at 04:24 PM
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azb
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@KitU:

Do you know how Halph failed to appear in the Level 52 1S1W? I made sure to make it impossible to come in from the West and cause him to "End on room exit" early using an orb lock mechanism, and if you come in through the stairs on Level 53 there should be no way out without killing the eye first.

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[Last edited by azb at 08-20-2020 05:17 PM : Make level number clearer]
08-20-2020 at 04:28 PM
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KituU
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quote:
azb wrote:
Do you know how Halph failed to appear in the Level 52 1S1W? I made sure to make it impossible to come in from the West and cause him to "End on room exit" early using an orb lock mechanism, and if you come in through the stairs on Level 54 there should be no way out without killing the eye first.


i'm playing lastest version, and restored to furthest save. I did in older version enter the room from the west initially.
08-20-2020 at 04:43 PM
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azb
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I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news :(

If you entered from the west at an earlier point before the edit, the new version will remember that as well and will not override it with the updated script, so you will have to restore to before you entered the room from the west.

I think the good thing is if you are stuck in that room, you won't have to re-do too much progress, since it is only possible to do Level 53 partially before going to that room again.

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[Last edited by azb at 08-20-2020 05:16 PM : Grammar: unnecessary "I"]
08-20-2020 at 05:14 PM
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bbb
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I have a roach left on (27,15) which is out of range of the bomb because of the force arrow.

I think the entrance should be changed so it should be cleared on the first pass. How to do that is up to you.
08-20-2020 at 07:53 PM
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