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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Architecture : King Nareik's Dungeon {v7: 18/4/2018} (Architect's Edition hold)
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kieranmillar
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File: King Nareiks Dungeon AE v7.hold (58.8 KB)
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icon King Nareik's Dungeon {v7: 18/4/2018} (+2)  
Throughout 2016 I made myself slowly work on an Architect's Edition hold. It was developed directly in Architect's Edition and I would just pitch in like 30 mins each day. It's pretty cool I think, and I got a lot done.

Sadly I stopped working on it in 2017 and so now it's been about 10 months since I last did anything to it, I should probably post it publically so that if something happened to me, at least it wouldn't die in obscurity. This doesn't mean this hold is abandoned, I should definitely finish it off sometime, but perhaps would be wise to not go with the entire 25-level plan I originally wanted to see if I could achieve that.

This hold has 13 levels (there is a 14th level room but it was just a reminder to myself about the level theme, nothing is really there). The hold starts off with a very restricted set of elements and each level so far is themed around the introduction of a new AE element.

The difficulty curve is a bit all over the place due to element restrictions, but there are some things I should probably do when I pick this back up, for example some rooms in level 5 are a bit too technical on serpent movement and could do with coming later, and levels 12 and 13 are just way too damn hard and should be nearer the end game. But when I pick this back up and add more levels there will be space to shuffle things to later rooms.

This hold is specifically designed to have the 5.0 treatment, which means that while you can play this in AE, the end hold would be converted into TSS and made prettier and add challenges etc, with perhaps the original as a bonus download. Also because this is AE, there are restrictions on checkpoint placement so some rooms need work on the checkpoints.

Every level has exactly one secret room, which is based on another room in the level, and one challenge. Note that of course the challenges are not scripted, as this is an AE hold (something to do when it is 5.0-ified at the end), and secret rooms are merely unrequired and denoted with a scroll, as AE does not have secret room support.

Why don't I 5.0-ify it now? Because I want to finish making it in AE first.

You can play this in AE if you want to, but due to the lack of any undo at all, and only being able to back one checkpoint step, I do not recommend doing that. Also, playing it in TSS records demos which are nice for feedback.

Any feedback would be really nice if you want to give any, so I can deal with it when I get back to this.

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(07:23 PM) Pearls: Kieran is correct.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 04-18-2018 11:06 PM]
12-26-2017 at 11:13 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v2: 10/3/2018} (+2)  
After watching Chaco's stream I decided to make some changes, then ended up looking over everything again. No new rooms, and this is still not out of hiatus, but I made some small changes throughout.

Version 2 is attached to the opening post.

v2 changelog:
Click here to view the secret text


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(07:23 PM) Pearls: Kieran is correct.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 03-10-2018 10:46 PM]
03-10-2018 at 10:33 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (0)  
Oh no, what a disaster!

After Nuntar mentioned he was really struggling on level 4, I decided to replay it to remind myself what it was like, and somehow one of the force arrows got flipped in 1S3E that made it look impossible. (Although it technically wasn't) Not really sure how this happened.

Sorry to anybody who got stuck! I know I've solved the room before with the intended solution, so this mistake happened somewhere along the line.

I have released a new version attached to the opening post.

v3 changelog:
Click here to view the secret text


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(07:23 PM) Pearls: Kieran is correct.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 03-12-2018 11:11 PM]
03-12-2018 at 10:56 PM
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (+5)  
The recent discussion reminded me I intended to comment on this hold. The comments are on the first version. Some comments are old, some are recent from looking at old demos, and some are from recent playing.

Critical game breaking problems:

The stairs on levels 7,12,13 point to their own level instead of the next one. (I fixed these in my copy, so I could continue in game and not only in the editor.)

Completed with all challenges except for one.

Comments on original version:

Click here to view the secret text

New comments on the new rooms:

Click here to view the secret text


[Last edited by bbb at 03-14-2018 07:13 AM : Comments on version 3]
03-14-2018 at 05:04 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (0)  
Hi bbb! Thanks a ton for playing through the whole thing! :thumbsup I have looked at all your comments, and have some questions and further comments. If you don't mind, if you have your demos I would love to see them, and it might help me understand some of your comments a bit better.

quote:
bbb wrote: The stairs on levels 7,12,13 point to their own level instead of the next one. (I fixed these in my copy, so I could continue in game and not only in the editor.)

Wow you're right! Sorry about that. Fixed for the next version.

Click here to view the secret text


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(07:23 PM) Pearls: Kieran is correct.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 03-14-2018 09:39 PM]
03-14-2018 at 09:00 PM
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Nuntar
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File: King Nareiks Dungeon AE.demo (24.5 KB)
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (+5)  
Demos for Levels 1-6 attached. Comments:

Click here to view the secret text


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03-19-2018 at 04:35 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (0)  
Thanks a bunch for the comments and the demos! Good news, there were only two rooms, 4:3E and 6:1S2E, that you broke, everything else I was happy with!
Replies to some of your comments:
Click here to view the secret text


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03-19-2018 at 10:24 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v4: 19/3/2018} (0)  
Made some changes based on the previous sets of feedback and uploaded a new version to the opening post. Do I still get to class this hold as in hiatus if I release 3 new versions, including some new rooms, in a span of two weeks?

v4 changelog:
* Fixed bad staircase location at end of levels 7, 12 and 13.
* Third level 2S4W: Moved checkpoint to a better location.
* Third Level 3W: Removed two southern-most trapdoors to make Southern edge flat.
* Fourth Level 3E: Added single pit square after yellow door to fix unintended solution.
* Fourth Level 4E: Added checkpoint.
* Fourth Level 1S3E/1S4E: Fixed orb that was accidentally toggleable. This has no tangible gameplay effect, but prevents possible confusion.
* Fifth Level 1N: Replaced with new room (previous room held in reserve to re-add into future level)
* Fifth Level 1N1W: Replaced with new room (previous room held in reserve to re-add into future level)
* Sixth Level 1S2E: Roach path is now even longer.
* Eighth Level 2N2W: Replaced with new room (previous room held in reserve to re-add into futurelevel)

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(07:23 PM) Pearls: Kieran is correct.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 03-19-2018 10:53 PM]
03-19-2018 at 10:52 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v5: 24/3/2018} (0)  
Well as much as I should be doing other things, I didn't like having an outstanding to-do list, so instead I finished off moving rooms into a new level and filled out the rest of the new level.

Now I really do need to go back on hiatus with this, at least for a short while.

This change could break demos for any level that used to be numbered 10 or later, as Architect's Edition doesn't let you move levels, you have to copy every level that needs moving.

v5 changelog:
* Seventh Level 2N: Moved into new Tenth Level and replaced with new room.
* New Level: Tenth Level. All later levels renumbered accordingly. This level focusses on unbrained free-roaming snake movement, and contains all previously removed rooms, plus more!

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03-24-2018 at 12:53 PM
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bbb
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File: knd_demos.demo (63.4 KB)
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (+5)  
I haven't downloaded the new versions yet, so the response is still relating to v3. The attached demos relate to the previous version.

Third Level: 3W
quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
... but am interested as to why you think entering from the North is easier.


See demo. The alcove in the south can be used to push the queen back north. The only required preparation is to block the queen from reaching the eastern wall. The north requires more work to prevent the queen from getting stuck on the northern border.

Seventh Level: 2N1E
quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. I have no idea what you're doing here to solve the room where a challenging waking up all the eyes is harder. There must be some unintended solution I'm not able to spot. A demo would be very helpful here.


It would be challenging if the orb closed the doors which previously held the queens. You would then have to prevent the eyes from reaching the southern area.

Seventh Level: 1N1E
quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
The aim of this room is to use the trapdoors to get lots of distance from the brained eyes so they unbrain and stop in the correct place when you hit the orb. I do that by building a small passage way then cutting them off at the last minute, did you manage something else?


That is what I did. I was wondering if it is possible to build up enough distance without cutting off the path.

quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
quote:
bbb wrote: Twelfth Level: 1S1W:
One mimic didn't do much, so maybe add a challenge to drop green door when placing mimic.

I am really intrigued as to how this is possible! :)


See the demo. I didn't actually do that. I just decided midway to kill all mud with one mimic, and made sure the other one didn't accidentally kill any.

Thirteenth Level: 2E
quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
I won't provide comment so that I don't accidentally drop hints, unless you want any. ...

EDIT: Sadly, in AE itself, the force arrows in this style are red, making them extremely hard to see if I put trapdoors under them, so I will leave them as is.


No hints yet! I still think you should still use trapdoors, as the main point is identifying the "bad" spaces, and not identifying the arrows.

quote:
kieranmillar wrote:
quote:
bbb wrote: Level 5: 1S1W
The extra floor is (8,10)? How about adding a yellow door to (25,14), which is also opened by the (22,17) orb. Add an additional orb which opens the door at (26,13) somewhere where it won't get in the way (for example, (16,17)). Then add a challenge to use that orb.

If I am understanding this correctly this would simply trivialise the non-challenge room as you wouldn't need the snake at all?




No. The orb would let the roach advance one square, so the serpent would need to be 3 squares long to survive the end.
03-25-2018 at 08:18 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v3: 12/3/2018} (0)  
Thanks a ton for the demos bbb! Much more useful to get a demo set, turns out quite a bunch more rooms were broken, and seeing the demos lets me fix them!

To respond to your responses:
quote:
bbb wrote:
Third Level: 3W
See demo. The alcove in the south can be used to push the queen back north. The only required preparation is to block the queen from reaching the eastern wall. The north requires more work to prevent the queen from getting stuck on the northern border.

The demo helped me visualise what you were doing here, maybe the changes I made in v4 make this room a bit better.

quote:
bbb wrote: Seventh Level: 2N1E
It would be challenging if the orb closed the doors which previously held the queens. You would then have to prevent the eyes from reaching the southern area.

I'm afraid I think we will just have to disagree here, due to the shape of the doors it's not difficult to trap the eyes on top of the door before heading to the orb and then it's a non-issue. But I like the challenge in the room as-is so I don't think I'll make any changes here. Thanks for the suggestion though.

quote:
bbb wrote: Twelfth Level: 1S1W:
See the demo. I didn't actually do that. I just decided midway to kill all mud with one mimic, and made sure the other one didn't accidentally kill any.

Ah yes, I see now. I've made a small change to try and make things more intended, but honestly your solution was fine too, so I deliberated a bit about fixing it.

quote:
bbb wrote: Thirteenth Level: 2E
No hints yet! I still think you should still use trapdoors, as the main point is identifying the "bad" spaces, and not identifying the arrows.

Alright, good idea, you've convinced me. Also your demo showed this room was still ever so slightly broken, not in all that an important way, but I still wanted to fix it.

quote:
bbb wrote: Level 5: 1S1W
No. The orb would let the roach advance one square, so the serpent would need to be 3 squares long to survive the end.

Click here to view the secret text


Again, thanks a bunch for the demos and for playing through the whole thing! I really appreciate it and have a new version lined up with a bunch more fixes.

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03-25-2018 at 09:19 PM
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (0)  
New version attached to the opening post with a load of fixes to issues discovered in bbb's demos. I just can't leave things on a todo list when there's rooms to be fixed!

v6 changelog:
* First Level Entrance: Added scroll thanking testers.
* Fifth Level 1S: Unintended solution fix - Most snakes are now 1 tile longer.
* Sixth Level 2E: Unintended solution fix - Roach closet is closer to the room boundary
* Ninth Level 2S1E: Unintended solution fix - Can no longer retreat out of the room.
* Ninth Level 2S1W: Unintended solution fix - Bottom serpent path is two tiles shorter.
* Eleventh Level 1W: Unintended solution fix - Field of force arrows added.
* Eleventh Level 1S1W: Passageway added to allow better moving around level thanks to change to 1W.
* Twelfth Level 1S1W: Sadly, had to remove a wraithwing from the room. Part of the room now has a different solution.
* Twelfth Level 1N: Unintended solution fix - Made a number of terrain tweaks. Also made some further tweaks to allow for much easier clean-up at the end of the room.
* Thirteenth Level 1S1W: One eye now trapped behind a force arrow.
* Fourteenth Level 2E: Put trapdoors under all trapping force arrows to make it more obvious what squares you need to avoid, also some arrows near start were accidentally not quite a trap.
* Fourteenth Level 1N2E: Unintended solution fix - Entrance passageway further away from the serpent.

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03-25-2018 at 09:22 PM
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (0)  
Replayed v6 with some new comments and challenges.

Click here to view the secret text

03-27-2018 at 09:37 PM
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Nuntar
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File: King Nareiks Dungeon AE.demo (31.4 KB)
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (0)  
Demos including Level 7 and 8. Comments:

Level 7
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Level 8
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[Last edited by Nuntar at 04-05-2018 01:33 AM]
04-05-2018 at 12:21 AM
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (0)  
Fifth Level: 1N1W is a good room. Keep it. (Though you may move it to another level.)

A challenge found when reviewing my solution after watching Chaco more or less follow the same process I went through:
Click here to view the secret text


Some notes about serpent movement preference in this room:
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Click here to view the secret text


Another solution strategy which I couldn't complete:
Click here to view the secret text
Is that possible?

Finally, I can't resist a small hint:
Click here to view the secret text

04-10-2018 at 09:45 PM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (+3)  
Thanks guys for the feedback. It is definitely much appreciated. Lots going on right now so not really ready right yet to go through this all and make changes based on it, I know I never responded to your last batch of feedback bbb, but I'll for sure get round to it eventually.

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04-10-2018 at 10:57 PM
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Nuntar
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File: King Nareiks Dungeon AE.demo (36.3 KB)
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (0)  
Demos including Level 9, 5:1N1W (including bbb's challenge) and the challenge in 5:1W. Comments:

5:1N1W

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Level 9

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04-11-2018 at 06:35 PM
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v6: 25/3/2018} (0)  
quote:
Nuntar wrote:
5:1N1W
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Click here to view the secret text


quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Click here to view the secret text




Click here to view the secret text


quote:
Nuntar wrote:
Click here to view the secret text



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[Last edited by bbb at 04-12-2018 06:41 AM : Comment on another point]
04-12-2018 at 06:26 AM
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kieranmillar
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icon Re: King Nareik's Dungeon {v7: 18/4/2018} (0)  
I have still not had a chance to go through Nuntar and bbb's feedback. But while very ill over the weekend, I had time to lie down and watch Chaco's playthorugh, and now I have a few spare moments, I decided that the idea of adding in a Warp Room was great and so quickly added one.

I also fixed some rooms that had quick fixes, but note that a level not being fixed here does not mean that fixes won't be coming in the future.

v7 changelog:
* Added Warp Zone for testing purposes, all level entrance rooms now have access to the Warp Zone.
* Level 5 1N: Roach now gets trapped if you try to block it with the Serpent, to fix unintended solution.
* Level 5 1S2W & 2S2W: A number of minor tweaks to prevent unintended solution.
* Level 10 1S1W & 2S1W: Eyes have moved to prevent unintended solutions.
* Level 15: Made hidden puzzle rooms accessible, so a bit more content for you, but note level will remain unfinished for quite a while yet! (although all rooms are beatable)

____________________________
(07:23 PM) Pearls: Kieran is correct.

[Last edited by kieranmillar at 04-18-2018 11:13 PM]
04-18-2018 at 11:09 PM
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