uncopy2002
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There are three types of shallow water traversal settings:

1. Default water traversal status, which depends from role to role. For example, Beethro hides in water by default, gel baby and Slayer wades on water by default, while Aumtlich and goblin cannot pass by default.

2. From Set shallow water traversal script command. If it is not set to "As player role", it overrides 1.

3. Player steps on a power token. Stepping on a power token makes human and goblin role always hide in water, and land-based monster role always wade in water.


And the problems:
1. 3 overrides 2, even if 2 is performed after 3.
2. More confusingly, for monsters 3 overrides 2 if 2 is set to cannot pass, while for human and goblins 3 overrides 2 if 2 is set to cannot pass or wade in water. Combining with problem 1, this means that monsters can be freely set wade/hide in water, while goblin and human is fixed to hide in water.

Intuitively, I think, if I set water traversal status then I mean it to be that way. It makes no sense for power token, a non-scripted element, to override it. And even if it does, it's strange to have it override differently for different types of characters.

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[Last edited by uncopy2002 at 02-26-2016 05:58 PM]

Nuntar
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To clarify this:

If the script command "Set shallow water traversal" is not used, so that shallow water traversal is default, the power token does change shallow water traversal. This is one of the lesser-known features of the power token, but it is likely intended, has a lot of puzzle potential, and has probably already been used in puzzles, so it shouldn't be changed.

I tested a few player roles, and uncopy's point about inconsistency is true even without the script command. Player role Construct, which is a Wades in water type, is unchanged by power token. Player role Soldier, also a Wades type, changes to Hides in shallow water.

(My feeling is that using the script command should be equivalent to setting an initial traversability state, so a later use of power token could override this, but certainly the script command should override the power token if the script command comes later. However, for this to work it's important to decide on which traversability states become which with power token, and to make this consistent.)

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skell
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It indeed seems like a bug. Deferred after 5.1, we'll then see if it breaks any demos or rooms.

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skell
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I am back. Thoughts? Just want to preface that I want to avoid big changes to the code here, and it appears that the current logic for water traversability for the player is:

1. If swimming, flying or Seep role -> forced NO ENTRY (not that it matters, they have their own movement rules), nothing else runs
2. If AS PLAYER ROLE -> Set to one depending on role, go to #3
3. If POWER TOKEN ACTIVE and current movement is other than CAN HIDE -> Human, goblins and goblin king set to CAN HIDE, otherwise set to CAN WADE

Which, if I understand all cases correctly, has the following consequences:

1. With Power Token player will ALWAYS have the ability to enter water -> I am fine with that
2. With Power Token Humans+Goblinkin will ALWAYS hide in water -> That can be easily changed
3. Without Power Token things probably make sense

Proposal #1:
1. Keep NO POWER TOKEN behavior as-is
2. With POWER TOKEN and AS PLAYER ROLE -> Humans+Goblinkin can hide, others can wade
3. With POWER TOKEN and NO ENTRY -> Treat exactly as POWER TOKEN and AS PLAYER ROLE
4. With POWER TOKEN and CAN WADE/HIDE -> Keep as-is

Proposal #2:
1. Modify that POWER TOKEN only works when NO ENTRY is set
2. Stepping on POWER TOKEN for the first time in a room will automatically change player's water traversal to NO ENTRY.

#1 feel too fiddly
#2 allows you to achieve what I believe has been requested. Not being able to force NO WATER ENTR while power token is active may be a bummer, so if you think it's super worth it I amy take a closer look.

But I want your opinions now.

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Nuntar
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I have to admit I don't follow what you are proposing.

There are really two separate issues here. First: does the current behaviour of power tokens with shallow water make sense or should anything be changed? Second: uncopy and I believe that if a power token is activated and then a script requests that shallow water traversal change to one of {cannot enter, wades in water, hides in water}, the requested effect should be carried out. This would allow the architect to override the effect of the power token for specific purposes.

For the first issue, the problem is that the power token doesn't consistently change one traversal type to another -- the individual exceptions have to be learned. (On the other hand, maybe it's good that this is a difference between player role Goblin and player role Roach, for example; that gives the architect more flexibility.)

Non-Beethro player roles are rarely used, so it's possible we could replace this with a consistent rule system, but the desire for consistency here is mostly aesthetic, so existing rooms should definitely be the priority concern. (In particular, I am looking at Outings with a Delver : Role Play : 1N1E -- I don't remember the solution well enough to know for certain if it would be affected, but it might well be.)

The specific rule system I am contemplating would be:

* Player roles that normally hide in shallow water (like Beethro) still hide after power token usage.
* Player roles that normally wade in shallow water will now hide.
* Player roles that normally can't enter shallow water will now wade.

But again, I'm only willing to entertain this idea if we can be sure that it won't damage existing rooms.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 10-20-2020 02:13 AM]

Dragon Fogel
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In that particular room, the power token is not activated until fairly late in the solution.

So it ends up only having these effects:


So your proposed rules wouldn't affect that.

However, Stalwarts go from "cannot enter" to "hide" and there's a room in Flood Warning about this.

Otherwise, I can't think of any rooms off the top of my head where this is relevant.

skell
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I just realized I forgot that Set Shallow Water Traversal is permanent and carries over rooms.

With that I don't think there is a way to keep existing behavior. I agree that the existing rules are fiddly and I also think what would've worked better would be for power token to promote water traversability by one (None -> Can Enter -> Can Hide), essentially what Nuntar suggested. But as Dragon Fogel correctly noticed that wouldn't work for Stalwarts.

I am now not sure if this can be sensibly cleaned up while also keeping the Stalwart change. A solution could be to expand Set shallow water traversal command to accept another options - permanence. Default would be "global" which would work exactly like it does right now, and "local" which would span only for the duration of current room and override Power Token changes.

Thoughts?


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Dragon Fogel
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The global/local split sounds good to me. Aside from being a potential aid with implementing scripted changes after using a power token, it would make it more convenient to script something like a "wade token" that allows you to wade until you leave the room.

Although I do wonder if there are names we could give them to make it clearer that the local one is a temporary override of the global one.

skell
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Feature request thread. I am marking this as "Not a bug" but feel free to continue the conversation and see if a better solution comes up.

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