Dragon Fogel
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Kind of related to the tarstuff and disabled force arrows issue, but distinct enough that I thought it would be better to note it in another topic.

Four puffs in a square won't form into fluff if any of the puffs are on force arrows, whether the arrows are on or off. I don't know if this was intended, but it's really unintuitive.

blorx1
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It's definitely not a bug (and to me it was rather expected). I think of fluff much like tarstuff, which also can't grow onto arrows.

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Dragon Fogel
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Puff assimilation is different enough from growth for it to be weird. And there's still the disabled force arrows issue.

blorx1
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The reason that I use the tarstuff analog is because fluff can also expand due to vents, in a process very similar to tarstuff growth. Because of this, having two different sets of rules is even more unintuitive for puffs congealing into a cloud and the expansion of clouds.

As for disabled arrows, tarstuff doesn't grow over disabled force arrows either, so yeah. What does bother me is that roach queens can spawn on disabled arrows, which is an odd exception that is probably stuck in the game at this point.


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Dragon Fogel
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It's the tarstuff and fluff expansion that's the exception. Briar grows on disabled force arrows, mimics can be placed on them, roach queens can spawn on them, serpents can move over them, and brains don't see them as obstacles. In every other instance, a disabled force arrow is treated as a floor without a force arrow on it. I already made a thread about that, though, so it's off-topic for this one.

So getting back to this subject: it's fairly easy to grasp fluff not growing on force arrows. You just see a vent with force arrows around it, and you see that the fluff doesn't grow, and that's not too confusing.

But, if in the same room, you see puffs get assimilated in one place and not another, it's less clear that the force arrows are the reason. You might be able to work it out without having a scroll explain it to you outright, but you'll have to think harder about it. And it's extremely confusing to see that happen when the force arrows are off; I doubt I would have thought of that if I hadn't already stumbled onto disabled force arrows blocking tar and fluff growth.

Nuntar
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Also (just as a quick aside in case any of the devs read this thread) queens spawning on disabled arrows is an enormous boon from the puzzle design point of view. It allows a queen to be stuck behind squares that can later be made traversable without the side effect of non-spawning you get when you use yellow doors. And it makes it easy to change whether individual squares are spawnable -- you can't do this with firetraps, as queens won't spawn on them whether active or not.

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skell
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I'm going to mark this as not a bug - no form of tar can ever appear (but it can be preplaced) on top of an enabled force arrow and for the same reasons I don't think it should be possible for fluff to form on top of them either.



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mrimer
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Just jumping in here to share some thoughts.

Skell is already fixing the disabled force arrows blocking tar and fluff growth. (Great! Thanks!)

Now, with that issue out of the way, I'll focus on the main issue of this topic. The reason that tarstuff doesn't grow onto force arrows is historical. It's because these used to be situated on the same item layer, along with monsters, and is the same reason that monsters can't move onto scrolls, potions, etc. Then we moved monsters onto their own layer, but we kept the item obstacle logic in place for backwards compatibility. Then we moved arrows onto their own layer too, and kept the tar growth obstacle logic in place for backwards compatibility too.

We kept these same rules for mud and gel as we added these tarstuff types, in order to be consistent. Fluff is a new element, but if we're considering it to act like a tarstuff, it makes sense we would keep the same obstacle logic around for it as well.

I could go either way on saying whether puffs can congeal into fluff on arrows, though. That's a mechanic that never happened with tar. As a new interaction, I think we should go with what would feel most intuitive to a player who has no preconceived notions about what should serve as an obstacle to "puffs forming into fluff". For me, that would be to let it combine into fluff. I wouldn't expect arrows to prevent the congealing process -- only movement. That's my two cents.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 02-07-2015 02:24 AM]

azb
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I apologize for necrobumping, but I only just found out recently: fixing this long-standing issue would break a few holds/rooms/levels. The specific one that comes to mind is my TSS Tutorial in the Disabled Arrows and Fluff displays. It wouldn't be part of the puzzle, though, so those rooms are still possible. There may be other rooms broken from this change, however.

Pinnacle
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To be honest, I think fixing something that's very obviously a bug should take precedence over not breaking rooms.

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bomber50
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Behaviour does not appear to have been changed in 5.0.2.1004. Puffs still don't form into fluff on top of enabled force arrows.

skell
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As per Mike's will!

Things fixed for the release candidate after 5.1.0.6462:
- Puffs can merge into fluff on top of force arrows (I can already see puzzles using this)

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Dragon Fogel
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Confirmed in 5.1.0.6478.

Puffs will form into fluff when on top of force arrows and disabled force arrows. Tested all directions of arrows just to be sure.

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[Last edited by Dragon Fogel at 02-26-2016 07:06 PM]