ErikH2000
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So let me describe your voterly duties before you go marking things up with the red pen...

1. The above entries, short as they were, did require truncatation. You'll want to read through all of them in the original contest announcement.

2. As a voter, you aren't obliged to solve each puzzle by yourself, but give it a shot, then peek at the answer. If it doesn't make sense to you how the answer was arrived at, ask here on the board. In general, don't be in a hurry to vote. You can discuss things openly, express your opinions, even try to sway other people to agree with you.

3. Once you begin voting, you must rate every entry. We can't use partial votes, and it is a pain to remove your vote so you can start over.

4. Authors must give their own entries a rating of 10 so that immodest people don't have an advantage.

5. Give each entry a 1-10 rating based on the following three factors: how well the puzzle met the short/long criterion, how enjoyable the puzzle was, and how original it was. Feel free to weight those factors however you wish. You can go back to the original contest announcement for clarification. Don't vote based on your personal opinion of the author or how many puzzles total he entered. Focus on the individual merit of each puzzle.

I think that's it. I really hope this poll post doesn't get screwed up somehow, because it took a while to write it up. Forgive me if I sound a little grumpy or something--it's been a long day. I was going to hunt down a tired smiley, but I'm too tired for that.

-Erik

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eytanz
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Are we allowed to discuss the puzzles? More specifically, if I think a solution given by one of the participents is far longer than necessary, can I point it out?

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Schik
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Erik said we can discuss them after the poll opens, so I'll assume that's still the case. Sure hope it is.

Here's my first pass at puzzle criticism:

Q: List the 5000 largest known prime numbers.
It's not a puzzle - it's looking something up. You can't possibly figure out the 5000 largest known primes. Might as well say "Write all the words in the English language."

You have four sticks...
Okay, this seems more like a puzzle. The answer's not horribly long, but it was certainly longer than the puzzle. Enjoyability is fair to good.

Given an apple, a lemon...
I think any of the people could tell them apart by shape. Or if they're able to bite the thing to tell a difference, they should also be able to tell them apart by feeling their texture. Odd puzzle.

For what positive k is it possible to dissect a 1xk rectangle...
A bit more math-y than I envisioned puzzles being, but other than that it seems to fit the guidelines well.

You are given nine identically looking balls and a balance scale...
Not the most original of the bunch, but it's more the kind of puzzle I was hoping we'd see. Enjoyable, and good short/long ratio.

you have to get 5 things across a river:...
Again not all that original, making it quite simple to solve. The answer's not that much longer than the question.

How can you count the decimal numbers of finite length?
Here's how I count them: There are an infinite number of them.

A two foot tall man is found dead in his home...
Seen that exact puzzle before, so for originality. I'd also argue that the guy's not guilty of murder, but that's another story.

In a regular game of Hearts, what are the chances...
Hmm.. More of a pretty simple math problem than a puzzle. And the answer's not very long.

How would it be possible (regardless of the law) for a male person to be his own grandpa...
Not that original, and not a very long answer.

In a particular numerical code, 6-18-18-213-39-174-123...
The answer could be shorter than the one given, but otherwise not bad. Bonus points for making it DROD-related.

I secretly pick four points. I then give you...
I'd give this a low score for how enjoyable it was, but maybe that's just me. It felt like a problem on a Geometry test. Perhaps because of that, it seemed original. For short/long it did pretty well.


Given all of that, I have no idea what I'll be voting yet.

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eytanz
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Schik wrote:
Erik said we can discuss them after the poll opens, so I'll assume that's still the case. Sure hope it is.

Here's my first pass at puzzle criticism:

Q: List the 5000 largest known prime numbers.
It's not a puzzle - it's looking something up. You can't possibly figure out the 5000 largest known primes. Might as well say "Write all the words in the English language."

Yeah, that's sort of deliberate - I was going for an abuse of the rules, not for a serious contender, and I didn't want something that's even accidentally can be taken to be a real puzzle and therefore get any points from anyone.

For reference, my original thought was to use the following puzzle:

"List the next 5000 numbers in this sequence: 1 2 4 8 16 ...", which is figure-out-able and therefore could be taken to be a real puzzle. Of course, It'd still rate very low on the "enjoyability" scale.

A two foot tall man is found dead in his home...
Seen that exact puzzle before, so for originality. I'd also argue that the guy's not guilty of murder, but that's another story.

Here, I think the answer given by Dimono is unecessarily long. I think the following is a perfectly acceptable answer to the puzzle:

"He used the stick to measure his height and it was shortened, making him think he had grown and he killed himself because he thought he lost his job. And no, I can't prove that it's murder"

(at best, you can conjecture that it's murder. It could have been a practical joke gone wrong, or an accident (maybe someone didn't know the significance of the stick?), or many other things).

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wackhead_uk
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Where's my puzzle...?

[Edited by wackhead_uk on 09-18-2004 at 01:05 PM GMT]

DiMono
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My first pass at the puzzles:

Q: List the 5000 largest known prime numbers.
List the next 5000 too.

You have four sticks...
I like puzzles like this, where you have to think and keep track of stuff. Solution wasn't that much longer than the question though.

Given an apple, a lemon...
This was ...different. Not a very long answer, either.

For what positive k is it possible to dissect a 1xk rectangle...
The answer went right over my head.

You are given nine identically looking balls and a balance scale...
I went back and found that I didn't use the intended solution if neither weighing balanced.This shortens the answer significantly, but requires a fifth weighing. Good puzzle.

You have to get 5 things across a river:...
This was basically a slightly longer version of a well known existing puzzle. It actually felt a little like tedium solving it.

How can you count the decimal numbers of finite length?
Of course the answer is infinity, the point of the puzzle is to show that they're countably infinite instead of uncountably infinite. The way to prove them countably infinite is to demonstrate that they can be lined up against the integers 1:1 using a predefined method, and this puzzle was to find that method. Remember, the questions wasn't "How many are there," the question was "How can you count them?"

A two foot tall man is found dead in his home...
The place you've seen this puzzle before was by me, in the puzzle thread. I left part of it out there, and had to remove it. It's on one of the early pages. And the reason the answer is long is that you have to use your powers of deduction. You could give any short answer to the puzzle, but without anything to back it up it's just theory.

In a regular game of Hearts, what are the chances...
When Noah PMed me for the answer to this, I gave him a pair of simple nCi formulas that I intended him to expand and combine as the actual answer. I was really quite surprised when he only changed a couple words and threw it up. As it is, the posted answer is incorrect due to its wording. This is a purely mathematical question.

How would it be possible (regardless of the law) for a male person to be his own grandpa...
My dad marries a twenty year old girl, and I marry her mom. That way, it's even legal. Again, I've seen this exact puzzle before.

In a particular numerical code, 6-18-18-213-39-174-123...
I feel like a cryptographer.

I secretly pick four points. I then give you...
I think the wording of the question was artificially shortened, which made it a little difficult to understand. I thought it was asking something entirely different at first. I had to play with both my questions a lot to avoid this, and it seems I too wasn't clear enough with the decimal numbers puzzle.

[Edited by DiMono on 09-18-2004 at 02:25 PM GMT]

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Watcher
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DiMono wrote:
Watcher's puzzle doesn't have a correct solution though. At the point when you're weighing 135 against 246, and 135 is heavier, first you don't know if one of 246 is heavy or if one of 135 is light, and second, even if one of the balls in 135 is heavy, you don't actually know where the light one is; it could be on the other side of the scale, or it could be excluded.

There's two points in the solution where you weigh 135 vs. 246, and I don't see a problem with either. In the first case, you've weighed 12 vs. 34 and 56 vs. 78, and both have balanced. That gives eight possibilities for the two odd balls:

1 heavy, 2 light
2 heavy, 1 light
3 heavy, 4 light
4 heavy, 3 light
5 heavy, 6 light
6 heavy, 5 light
7 heavy, 8 light
8 heavy, 7 light

Any other combination would cause one of the first two weighings to be unbalanced. Now, if 135 vs. 246 is balanced, one of the last two possibilities on the list must be correct. If 135 is heavier, the first, third, or fifth possibility must be correct. If 246 is heavier, the second, fourth or sixth possibility must be correct.

Now, in the other case, you've found that 12 is heavier than 34, and that 56 is heavier than 78. This leaves eight possibilities:

1 heavy, 7 light
1 heavy, 8 light
2 heavy, 7 light
2 heavy, 8 light
5 heavy, 3 light
5 heavy, 4 light
6 heavy, 3 light
6 heavy, 4 light

Again, any other combination would cause a different outcome for the first two weighings. Now, if 135 vs. 246 balances, the fifth or eight possibility must be correct. If 135 is heavier, the first, second, or sixth possibility must be correct. If 246 is heavier, the third, fourth, or seventh possibility must be correct.

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DiMono
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Watcher: I went back and edited my answer, and part of that was after revisiting your puzzle and changing my deduction. Don't worry


Significant edit: Why do Noah's puzzles have 3 votes, and the rest have 2? Isn't the forum supposed to prevent that?

[Edited by DiMono on 09-18-2004 at 02:07 PM GMT]

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Watcher
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With that out of the way, here's my first comments on the puzzles:

Q: List the 5000 largest known prime numbers.
I thought it was pretty obvious that this wasn't a serious entry. It's quite funny, though.

You have four sticks...
Not that long an answer, but a good puzzle nevertheless, and not too difficult.

Given an apple, a lemon...
Like Schik said, it's odd, and the answer isn't much longer than the question.

For what positive k is it possible...
Quite difficult, and requires too much knowledge of mathematics.

you have to get 5 things across...
Not very original, but a nice and enjoyable puzzle, even if the answer's pretty short.

Puzzle: How can you count...
There's a countably infinite number of them, a fact which is rather simple to prove. I don't understand the relevance of the sum formula.

A two foot tall man is found dead...
Nice puzzle. I think the answer can be made a good deal shorter without losing anything from the deduction, though.

In a regular game of Hearts...
Not as much a puzzle as a math problem.

How would it be possible...
Not too original, and the answer is quite short.

In a particular numerical code...
Very good puzzle, and the answer is a good deal longer than the question. One of the best entries.

I secretly pick four points...
Interesting, but requires some knowledge of mathematics.

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Watcher
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DiMono wrote:
Watcher: I went back and edited my answer, and part of that was after revisiting your puzzle and changing my deduction. Don't worry

I wasn't worried, but I thought the answer was worth explaining in more detail, to avoid further misunderstandings.

Your alternate solution to my puzzle doesn't work, though. You're using five weighings, and you're only allowed to use four. Sorry.

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gamer_extreme_101
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Wackhead already pointed this out, but there is a puzzle missing in the ballot, and it would be a bit unfair if it wasn't included in the ballot....I'd suggest we wait for Erik's word before we start writing huge commentaries.

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DiMono
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Watcher wrote:
Your alternate solution to my puzzle doesn't work, though. You're using five weighings, and you're only allowed to use four. Sorry.

Wow, that's what I get for misreading the question... I thought it said five. I guess I have to go back and change my big long reply, where I said it would be a better puzzle if it required only four...

[Edited by DiMono on 09-18-2004 at 02:24 PM GMT]

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eytanz
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DiMono wrote:
A two foot tall man is found dead in his home...
The place you've seen this puzzle before was by me, in the puzzle thread. I left part of it out there, and had to remove it. It's on one of the early pages. And the reason the answer is long is that you have to use your powers of deduction. You could give any short answer to the puzzle, but without anything to back it up it's just theory.

See, I disagree here.

Lateral thinking puzzles aren't really puzzles in the same way math or word puzzles are. They are a game. Moreover, they are a social interaction game. You need at least two players; the point is to go back and forth and get information gradually.

You can't deduce the answer on your own. You can make guesses or conjectures but there's no way to judge which is the right one and which isn't without some moderating authority.

Now, your line of deduction is very good and well explained, but it's only worth anything if you already know the answer. Imagine the answer was "The man was Pinoccio. Having lived most of his life as a con-man, he had the habit of sawing his ever-lengthening nose down to size every evening. This evening, after sawing off his nose, he suddenly realized that he makes his living of the suffering of others, and, racked with guilt, decided to kill himself, and shot himself in the face. Ironically, at the very moment the power of his emotions turned him into a real human." Now, this is probably not quite as entertaining an answer, and arguably less plausible, but it's a possible answer. The only reason it's not is because the author of the puzzle decided so. And I came up with it in under 5 minutes. If this were your solution, the deduction would be irrelevent.

To get to my point - the deduction isn't the answer to the puzzle. It's the explanation for the answer, but the answer is the short story that explains what actually happened.

Note also that nothing in the contest's description said we have to give answers that are self-explanatory. It's the puzzle-writer's responsibility to phrase the puzzle that way. Take Erik's example puzzle. He wrote: "how can the bunny visit each square?". That has a somewhat detailed answer. Had he written "can the bunny visit each square?", the answer would have been the one-word "yes."

Several of the puzzles given above suffer from this issue - their answers could be shortened to briefer answers answering the question but not giving a reason. Your midget puzzle is the most extreme in that regard, though, and it also suffers from the fact that there's no objective criteria to judge the answers.

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ErikH2000
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wackhead_uk wrote:
Where's my puzzle...?

[Edited by wackhead_uk on 09-18-2004 at 01:05 PM GMT]

@#!*&!

I accidentally left it out, which means I gotta make a new poll with yours in it. Everybody please hold off on voting. DiMono, Noah--you'll have to vote again, I'm sorry.

-Erik

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NoahT
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DiMono wrote:
Why do Noah's puzzles have 3 votes, and the rest have 2? Isn't the forum supposed to prevent that?

The instructions said authors must give their own entries rating of 10, so that's exactly what I did.

-Noah

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wackhead_uk
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I know I'm not going to win, but I just wanted to get the 10 rank point bonus because it's my first time. I hope I get more than 7!

ErikH2000
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NoahT wrote:
The instructions said authors must give their own entries rating of 10, so that's exactly what I did.

But did you vote for all the other entries? Or just your own?

You have to vote for all of the entries at one time.

-Erik

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Tim
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ErikH2000 wrote:
I accidentally left it out, which means I gotta make a new poll with yours in it. Everybody please hold off on voting. DiMono, Noah--you'll have to vote again, I'm sorry.

-Erik

Erik,

Can we continue the discussion here, or are you removing this thread and make a new thread?

-- Tim

PS. A very short comment: I just looked up the definition of congruent and similar. What is wrong with splitting any rectangle into 2 different sized rectangles, and calling them similar but not congruent?

[Edited by Tim on 09-18-2004 at 05:57 PM GMT]

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wackhead_uk
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well, the only way you can split up a rectangle into two triangles is if they are congruent, no matter how big or what shape the rectangle is. They are technically similar, but they should be called congruent. That's all I know.

masonjason
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Tim wrote:

ErikH2000 wrote:
I accidentally left it out, which means I gotta make a new poll with yours in it. Everybody please hold off on voting. DiMono, Noah--you'll have to vote again, I'm sorry.

-Erik

Erik,

Can we continue the discussion here, or are you removing this thread and make a new thread?

-- Tim

PS. A very short comment: I just looked up the definition of congruent and similar. What is wrong with splitting any rectangle into 2 different sized rectangles, and calling them similar but not congruent?

[Edited by Tim on 09-18-2004 at 05:57 PM GMT]

Two polygons are similar only if the proportions of their sides are identical, so not all rectangles are similar. However, you can dissect a 1 * k rectangle (with k > 2) into two similar but noncongruent rectangles by dividing it perpendicular to its long side at a distance of (k - sqrt(k^2 - 4))/2 from the corner.

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ErikH2000
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It probably makes the most sense to continue conversation over at the new poll. I locked this topic, and I think that should prevent people from voting here. >>shrug<<

-Erik

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 09-18-2004 at 07:30 PM GMT]

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