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Caravel Forum : DROD Boards : Feature Requests : iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (Requesting an iOS DROD)
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Stakker
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icon iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (+1)  
Hi,

I've been a big DROD fan for years and years. Nowdays I don't have the time to play games that much anymore... except when commuting to work and back! And, also, you may have noticed that this mobile/tablet gaming market is getting pretty big :-) And one more also: DROD is a *perfect* match for touch screens! No control issues at all and thanks to the turn-based gameplay, you can put it down immediately anytime when you're interrupted. Simply perfect!

I would be prepared to pay a substantial amount of money in order to be able to play DROD on my iPad. Please make it happen! :-)

All the best,
Stakker
04-23-2013 at 12:00 PM
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stigant
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (+1)  
This was actually discussed at length a few years ago, and the feeling (at the time) was that the controls on a touch screen are fairly problematic. DROD is designed to use the keyboard for input. Touch screens are very bad at keyboard type input. It's just too easy to press the wrong "button" when the buttons aren't well defined.

Now, that doesn't mean it can't be done, but what needs to be fleshed out here is this bit: "No control issues at all". Come up with a good control scheme.

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04-23-2013 at 02:20 PM
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Stakker
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (+2)  
Fair enough :-) You're right, the controls aren't completely issue-free. I may be biased because I've designed mobile games for a living for the last 12 years, so I'm intimately familiar with the worst control interfaces known to man :-)

There is one issue: speed. The more error-proof you want the controls, the slower they will be. But the key is to give visual feedback to the player. The player needs to know what the final control action will do *before* committing. I think this is perfectly doable.

Here are four of my suggestions in order of preference:

1) DRAG & TAP

Works with just thumbs so that you can hold your device comfortably.

Drag (slide your thumb/finger) anywhere on screen. The direction of the drag defines the direction of movement (quantize to the nearest one of the 8 directions). The important detail is this: give visual feedback about the movement direction *immediately* after the slide direction is detected. (Highlight the target square next to the character for example.) The move is executed when you *lift* your thumb. As long as you hold your thumb down, you're safe. This means that you can see from the visual feedback that the slide was interpreted correctly before you lift the thumb and accept the movement command. If the direction is not the one you intended, you can simply slide a bit more to correct while keeping your thumb down. Or, you can even slide in a circle and go through all the 8 directions before choosing one direction and lifting the thumb. (Once you start to drag, the dragging forms a sort of a virtual joystick. The center of the stick is the starting point of the drag and the "shaft" streches as you drag. This allows for the 360 degree circling movement if you wish to do this. But it's not really necessary at all, just a nice detail.) When you are travelling through non-critical large spaces, you can do this sliding motion sequentially really quickly without paying much attention to checking that the direction is always correct. Sometimes it may be a bit off if you do this really quickly, but it doesn't matter. Then when you get to more critical puzzle situations, you start to slow down and actually check that your slides are interpreted 100% correctly before lifting the thumb.

Sword rotation is done by tapping the left and right sides of the screen. (Left 50% of the screen rotates left, right 50% rotates right.) Taps are easy to distinguish from drags (you can always tune the threshold of allowed "sliding" if you want to) and they are fast.

I think this is the best combination of speed and "error-proofness" (and avoiding virtual buttons.)

2) MOVEMENT TARGET SYSTEM WITH DRAG

Also works with just thumbs so that you can hold the device comfortably.

Add a new UI/control element: character "facing" direction or movement target. Always show where the character will move when you execute the movement command. A highlighted square next to the character again, for example.

You can now rotate the movement target freely without making a move (the game does not progress.) The screen is once again invisibly split in two. When you drag your thumb on the right side of the screen, the movement target will rotate into that direction (the drag direction should probably be relative to the character.) Tap anywhere on the right half of the screen to execute a move.

Drag anywhere on the left side of the screen to rotate the sword into the direction of the drag.

This system is probably slightly more error-proof but also slower than the first one.

3) MOVEMENT TARGET SYSTEM WITH VIRTUAL BUTTONS

The same as the previous one, but if you don't like so much dragging (or the dual dragging is too confusing), use two virtual buttons (on the left side of the screen for example) for rotating the sword.

4) DIRECT TAP MOVEMENT

This doesn't work with just thumbs anymore.

The character is always in the center of the screen. Simply tap in the direction where you want the character to move (quantized to 8.) This should also use the same immediate visual feedback system as in number 1 so that you can check for error and adjust before releasing your finger.

Slide to rotate the sword. The direction of the rotation is relative to the direction of the slide and character.

This system is almost as good as the first one otherwise, but at least I find tapping around the screen a bit tiresome (at least on iPad) and your hand tends to conceal a part of the screen, so you may need to peek under it and so forth, which can sometimes be a bit annoying. And you may need a slightly more awkward grip or a table/leg to hold the device if it's a big iPad.

So, yeah, I know you've also thought about these things. But these are my suggestions and I hope I brought something new to the table!

Stakker
04-23-2013 at 07:42 PM
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stigant
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (0)  
I think this is the best combination of speed and "error-proofness" (and avoiding virtual buttons.)
Yeah, I think you're right about it being the best combination, but that doesn't make it great. Imagine using this setup to solve a room in which there are lots of roach queens and, say, 500-600 (or more) move necessary. Compare that to the experience of using a keyboard. It shouldn't be too hard to rig up a demo for yourself and try it.

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04-23-2013 at 07:54 PM
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Stakker
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (+2)  
stigant wrote:
Imagine using this setup to solve a room in which there are lots of roach queens and, say, 500-600 (or more) move necessary. Compare that to the experience of using a keyboard.

Hmm yeah you mean replicating keyboard "repeat"? Yeah, that is an issue.

Continuing with first control system then. How about this: tap with the *other* thumb while you are still holding the dragging thumb down to execute the movement. You can now keep the first thumb down or even slide it into other directions and keep tapping with the second thumb as fast as you can or HOLD the second thumb down to repeat the action just like a keyboard. This way you could even change the movement direction with the first thumb while the "key repeat" stays on thanks to the second thumb. This is actually better than a keyboard, right? On a keyboard the repeating will stop once you change direction, so there is a pause.

One downside is that then you couldn't rotate the sword and move simultaneously, but it doesn't sound like a big issue to me. Another is that It may require some practise to learn to use quickly and reliably. But we aren't exactly talking about a casual game here anyway :-)

If you don't have to hold the iDevice up, you can also use the index and middle fingers to do this, which might feel more intuitive.

Another idea: have a separate "repeat last command" virtual button.

You also have to remember that hardcore touchscreen gamers are used to playing even time-critical arcade action games with similar and more difficult controls, often ported from desktop or consoles.

OK, off to bed now :-)
04-23-2013 at 08:41 PM
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stigant
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (0)  
Hmm yeah you mean replicating keyboard "repeat"? Yeah, that is an issue.
No, I mean having to do 500 swipes in different directions in a row (and waiting for feedback on each one to make sure it was precise enough). When typing on a keyboard, you have discrete input and feedback is there, but far less necessary, and far quicker than what you're describing. I'm pressing a key with my finger, and I get feedback (pressure/click from the key) from my finger, so the feedback signal doesn't have to travel to my brain. What you're describing is a swipe with your finger, and visual feedback which has to go to your eyes to your brain to your finger. It's inherently slower. If you type at 60 words per minute, you're hitting about 5 keys per second. Assume that your PC-DROD speed is about the same (most of the time, save for a few pauses to think about your next move sequence - not move, move sequence). I estimate that you can only do one swipe with feedback per second (that's optimistic). That means IOS-DROD will be 5 times slower than PC-DROD.

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04-23-2013 at 09:31 PM
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skell
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (0)  
Divide the screen into 12 squares/rectangles 4x3, 9 of them are for movement, 2 for turning, one is special (undo?). Or into 15, 5x3, with the last row having battle-key/control-equivalent, restart, menu.
Make it possible to show/hide visual feedback on where the squares are. I think it's pretty much as one of the methods you've proposed? I've compiled Flash DROD into iOS once and this kind of movement was pretty good.

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04-24-2013 at 06:48 AM
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Stakker
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icon Re: iOS port (the new DROD or any version) (+1)  
I don't know how much you have used touchscreen devices, but swiping is not that slow. It is actually fast once you use the device regularly. Also, the visual feedback is not needed 90% of the time. Swiping to 8 directions is actually quite accurate if you are used to playing touchscreen games. I could do that really quickly and reliably. The visual feedback is there for the critical situations when you MUST be absolutely certain that you are doing the correct movement. And the important point is that I think this usually correlates to the situations in the game where you are slowing down anyway in order to think. And you always also have to THINK what you are going to do next. Keyboard is that much faster only if you don't need to think at all. But you need to plan ahead while you are moving and I really don't believe that the swiping (plus tapping for sword rotation) is that much slower in real gameplay situations. You plan ahead while you swipe. Yes, it will be a bit slower in some situations, but overall, no, I don't believe it will make that much of a difference really.

Killing tons of roaches in the standard "rotate sword left-right-left-right" way would also be just as fast as with keyboard (tap left/right sides of screen.)

And even if the gameplay would be, say 25% slower, I would still rather play DROD that is 25% slower on my iPad than not play at all.

But, it's not my game. The decision is up to you :-) I've given all the input I can and I wish you luck with the new game & Steam Greenlight. (Voted :-)

Cheers!
04-24-2013 at 09:19 AM
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Tim
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Stakker wrote:
But, it's not my game. The decision is up to you :-) I've given all the input I can and I wish you luck with the new game & Steam Greenlight. (Voted :-)
Ah! No wonder this thread sound so familiar! I think I have an idea who you are. :P

To be honest I've also have the feeling that a tablet version isn't a bad idea. But I also have the feeling that technical problems is not the main reason why there isn't a iOS version out there.

My guess is that the Caravel Team is already very committed in trying to release TSS within the next 12 months (I'm sure you understand how many production hours go into a game like this and obviously I hope they spend the most time on it) and there simply are not much resources left to do everything else.

Doesn't mean that it's impossible, but I think if you know any iOS person it would be easier. :)

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04-24-2013 at 01:09 PM
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mrimer
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Hi, Stakker!

Thanks for coming to the forum and taking this time to share your comments and ideas, and then coming back to provide further feedback to address some general concerns people have. That's very kind of you, and hearing your ideas is quite helpful for me.

This is an area I'd definitely like Caravel releases to branch out to, and I'll see what we can do in the (hopefully, near) future.

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04-25-2013 at 01:44 AM
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Stakker
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No problem, one has to help other game devs :-)

Tim: I haven't posted here before (as far as I can remember :-P), so you are most likely thinking about somebody else...

If I do happen find some iOS developers who are into DROD and are not swamped with other work, I'll let you know :-) (Not very likely at the moment, I'm afraid...)
04-25-2013 at 01:18 PM
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Tim
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Stakker wrote:
Tim: I haven't posted here before (as far as I can remember :-P), so you are most likely thinking about somebody else...
You could be correct that you're new here, but if I'm correct I read your "blog" every day. :P
If I do happen find some iOS developers who are into DROD and are not swamped with other work, I'll let you know :-) (Not very likely at the moment, I'm afraid...)
I already have an engine in C that I wrote for the (unofficial) DS version, but I just lack the resources to port it to iOS. So if there is any interest in it we can do this even alongside the main Caravel development line (but obviously as an official Caravel product), and therefore it can arrive a lot faster.

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04-25-2013 at 02:19 PM
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Schik
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Well, a few posts up there, skell mentioned that he's compiled flashdrod for iOS. I'm not sure why we wouldn't just let him run with it when we want to make a push for iOS.

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04-25-2013 at 02:29 PM
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Tim
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Schik wrote:
Well, a few posts up there, skell mentioned that he's compiled flashdrod for iOS. I'm not sure why we wouldn't just let him run with it when we want to make a push for iOS.
That's even better! I'm always happy to not do things. :P

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04-25-2013 at 02:45 PM
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mrimer
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Yeah, we're letting skell run with this. Let's try some interface schemes and see where we go.

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[Last edited by mrimer at 04-26-2013 12:44 AM]
04-26-2013 at 12:43 AM
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