Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

In lots of platform-style games, both on the computer and on consoles, certain enemies or items can make the character you control "confused", which can either mean it introduces some randomness to your movement or makes all the moves you do the reverse of what you entered. The first option is bad for DROD, because we don't want randomness. But the second option is easy to implement, and it would take some time to get used to having to push right to move left, etc, so I think it could be of use in puzzles.

It could be done in a few ways. One would be to make an entire room a "reverse" room, another would be just to make certain sections of a room "reverse". Or an orb, in addition to opening a door, can make the room "reverse". Finally, certain potions could have the "reverse" side effect, that maybe would wear off after the usual 30 turns, or perhaps only when the monsters are all dead and Beethro can take the time to clear his head (or there can even be an antidote for early recovery).

In the end, like with Brains, the player would just need to be a lot more carful when making their moves, but initially it could be interesting.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

agaricus5
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 1838
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

No! No reverse moves, please! It's bad enough slipping up with tar mothers and babies to have to do it in reverse! *groan*

Sorry about that (I absolutely hate tar, so I wanted to give my opinion)

[Edited by agaricus5 on 04-29-2003 at 10:11 PM]

____________________________
Resident Medic/Mycologist

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

This could be interesting...but why would one want to do a room in reverse? The only way I could see to do it with an orb is to have a cracked reverse orb blocking the mandatory path, and same for potion placement. Plus, it'd be doubly difficult, as all the smiters would need to get used to a different sword turning button thingy.

____________________________

Scott
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 578
Registered: 02-12-2003
IP: Logged

I don't think that it would add anything to the game really.

Besides you can just turn your keyboard upside down if reverse and you haven't changed the game at all.

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Well, yes, the only thing it would add would be more difficulty. I was imagining a hallway with alternating "normal" and "reverse" squares...to go through it you would have to hit LRLRLRLRLRLR, for example...nothing too difficult but you just have to change your way of thinking...your DROD paradigm, if you will. And if you have individual squares able to be either "normal" or "reverse", as I said, then you can just make a small area of a room different...keep us from getting complacent.

Anyway, just because a suggestion makes the game harder, I don't think it should be discounted. This game is supposed to be a challenge, after all (and not an unreasonable one, although the first time in some of those rooms I thought it was)! Otherwise, Brains would have been taken out, since they definitely make the game harder (and some rooms would be impossible with Brains...the room has to be designed specifically with a Brain in mind). But if it won't be a fun change to the game, then that is a good reason to discount a feature request. To appease agaricus, if for some reason Erik likes this suggestion, we could declare a moratorium on reverse rooms with tar.

This discussion just made me think of spiders...why are they only on level 10? Were they meant to be a one-time enemy, or were they originally placed later in the dungeon also and taken out because it made it too hard, or were they just annoying and not fun any more? Curious.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Malarame
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
This discussion just made me think of spiders...why are they only on level 10? Were they meant to be a one-time enemy, or were they originally placed later in the dungeon also and taken out because it made it too hard, or were they just annoying and not fun any more? Curious.

Remember, you need to have light blue tiles in order for the spider to be effective. That's probably one reason why they aren't seen more.

____________________________
Matt O'Leary
Webb Institute
Class of 2007

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception."
-Groucho Marx

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Like level 23? Yes, level 23 is already a pain as it is, but I really expected to see spiders when I got there and saw the tileset. And of course there's no reason why you couldn't just do a palette shift on the spiders for different levels, am I right? Some kind of chameleon thing or adaptation to its environment or something.

Game on,

[Edited by Oneiromancer on 04-30-2003 at 08:50 PM GMT: Added musings on ecology of the spider]

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Malarame
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 220
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
Like level 23? Yes, level 23 is already a pain as it is, but I really expected to see spiders when I got there and saw the tileset. And of course there's no reason why you couldn't just do a palette shift on the spiders for different levels, am I right? Some kind of chameleon thing or adaptation to its environment or something.

This has been discussed before, and Erik said that he doesn't want different colored spiders. Also, remember the comment at the beginning of level 10? It wouldn't make sense if spiders could change color.

____________________________
Matt O'Leary
Webb Institute
Class of 2007

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception."
-Groucho Marx

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
This discussion just made me think of spiders...why are they only on level 10? Were they meant to be a one-time enemy, or were they originally placed later in the dungeon also and taken out because it made it too hard, or were they just annoying and not fun any more?

They are pretty annoying. Everybody hates them. Well, I spose there must be at least one person that doesn't hate them. I threw them into Webfoot DROD at the last minute because I felt more monsters were needed for variety and spiders could be added by just changing the tile graphics of one of the monsters (tar baby). I was in a hurry. Only one level was made with them because I was in a hurry to release the game to Webfoot, plus I just couldn't come up with many spider-related ideas for puzzles.

I think spiders are the worst element in the game and don't plan to make use of them in the future. However, the editor in the next release will let people create rooms with spiders. And they'll only be hard to see on that one blue style, because the story indicates that the light-blue color of flooring is special.

It might have been better if the spiders were completely invisible. You'd see them once when you enter the room and then later when you die. Then you would have to deduct their positions instead of waiting for the eyes to blink. A thinking man's paranoia.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Malarame wrote:
This has been discussed before, and Erik said that he doesn't want different colored spiders. Also, remember the comment at the beginning of level 10? It wouldn't make sense if spiders could change color.

I still present level 23 as evidence for more spider possibilities...

Anyway, it's not worth arguing over anymore, especially since I came in late to a previous discussion. I hereby drop it, and with luck this post will drop to the next screen in a few...months, probably.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

Apparantly Erik replied at the same time I was, so I have to answer him now. My response would be that I don't like spiders much either, but I think they do fit in to DROD pretty well. Imagine one of the rooms on level 23 that wasn't too hard, just having one or two spiders. You figure out the puzzle after dying a few times, are just about to complete the room, and then suddenly Beethro enters his death throes! Annoying the first time, yes, but after that you know they're there. The whole room doesn't have to be designed around the spider, just be one element of the puzzle. Those are the rooms that I like the best...where there are several steps to the puzzle, and you have to think more than usual.

Okay, now I'm really done (until the next comment, I suppose).

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

ErikH2000
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2794
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Oneiromancer wrote:
In lots of platform-style games, both on the computer and on consoles, certain enemies or items can make the character you control "confused", which can either mean it introduces some randomness to your movement or makes all the moves you do the reverse of what you entered. The first option is bad for DROD, because we don't want randomness. But the second option is easy to implement, and it would take some time to get used to having to push right to move left, etc, so I think it could be of use in puzzles.

In general, I don't like to mess with the interface between player and Beethro. Better to keep the player's thinking at a higher level. Even things that help Beethro, like giving him an extra long sword, end up splitting the game into multiple modes where the player must learn a different set of results to expect from their commands. You've got to do this mental switching between modes that undermines your confidence in what will happen when you press a key. Even when you aren't in a room that has mode-switching game elements, you can still feel somewhere in the back of your head that a mode switch might happen, so there is an extra tiny pause where you very briefly consider what mode you are in before issuing a command. I mean a pause measured in milliseconds. Being sure of the interface lets you forget about how Beethro is controlled more easily.

I wouldn't always avoid modes in DROD design. I do put a cost to it, though.

This is all very touchy feely stuff, and can't be argued very well. One thing is that I try to design a game that I myself will enjoy. It's really the only reasonable way to do it. Often, the notions I come up with are more a product of how my brain works than any universal rule of game design. For instance, I like to settle in and brood calmly over problems, hence we have a game with no timers and an intricate scene that you can stare at for as long as you like. Other people got brains like mine, so it works out.

-Erik

____________________________
The Godkiller - Chapter 1 available now on Steam. It's a DROD-like puzzle adventure game.
dev journals | twitch stream | youtube archive (NSFW)