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DiMono
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File: Tar Caves.hold (7.1 KB)
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icon New Hold: Tar Caves (+1)  
This is something I threw together in my spare time. It's a handful of puzzles involving tar, a few of which I've never seen anywhere else, and it's totally open concept: there is only one meaningful green door on the level, and there's even a way around it. Please, tell me what you think! :)

Edit: updated the hold. Two room fixes, and a couple other little things.

Edit: updated the hold again. Added the much-requested checkpoint to 2S, and added many checkpoints to the much-lamented 2E.

[Edited by DiMono on 06-22-2004 at 01:08 AM GMT]

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06-14-2004 at 06:31 AM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (+1)  
Well, I've had a glance at it; so no proper testing, so while I'm quite impressed with the concepts, I don't think they are quite unique or have not been used before.

Efficiency rooms, such as 1E, 2E and perhaps 1N 1E are similar in style to some rooms I made in Bavato's Dungeon, L3 1N, 1S and 1N 3E; and L8 Entrance, although they are not as intricate as yours, or perhaps as demanding; I don't know.

Manipulation rooms like 2S 1E and 3E are also similar to Bavato's Dungeon L8 4E and perhaps 1N 3E, again just a bit more elaborate.

However, the originality issues aside, what I do like is the complex layout of some of the solutions, which do require quite a lot of thought. Although the concepts are simple enough, some of the solutions appear to be actually quite hard to find, since the solution appears to be so tight in cases. From experience with tar manipulation and similar efficiency rooms, what I do suggest is that you place more checkpoints in tar-heavy rooms, like 2E or 1N 1E. This is basically because tar itself has an alarmingly high growth rate at times, and so rooms involving clearing it up often require efficiencies of up to 15-20 squares of tar destroyed per 30 moves in order to keep up with it. If this is the case, much progress is slow, and progressing to the next checkpoint may take many times longer than it would be expected. I would say a checkpoint every 75-150 moves is about right for convenience and avoidance of frustration, although how far you can go will depent entirely on the nature of the tar mass you are dealing with.

It's a very good hold, quite thought-provoking, and quite inspirational, although I won't copy anything. I look forward to playing it later on when I've some more free time.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-14-2004 at 09:42 PM GMT]

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06-14-2004 at 10:40 PM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
Well, just goes to show I haven't looked at Bavato's Dungeon then. Ah well, at least they're new to me :)

I can tell you, though, that 1N1E is not quite what you think it is.

I think I'm going to change 1S up a little though, add some red herrings, and do something similar in 2S. I'll wait for more feedback first though.

[Edited by DiMono on 06-15-2004 at 02:33 AM GMT]

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06-14-2004 at 11:05 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
DiMono wrote:
...Something was removed.

I wasn't referring to 1N 1E, more 2E than anything else.

With regards to 1N 1E, in that case, since the babies are brained, the efficiency rate should then be able to go up to about 30 squares/30 moves in places.

Please don't mock me like this. I honestly want to test the hold, but if you start saying things like this before I've even had a chance to play properly, then you may put me off bothering. Although I'm only one voice in many, I don't appreciate it, and so wish to let you know about it first, before an argument develops.

Removed offending quote.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 06-15-2004 at 04:03 PM GMT]

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06-14-2004 at 11:39 PM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
Yeah, you're right. The offending sentence has been removed, and now lives on only in your post... and the email box of those who receive messages from the Architecture board in their email. Though it wasn't meant as mocking, more like insane cackling.

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06-15-2004 at 03:34 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
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06-15-2004 at 03:12 PM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
eytanz wrote:
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You're right... I removed the crumbly wall from the bottom of that area, and put a green door in the middle of the left side of it. That fixes the problem, while maintaining the intended solution for 1N1E. Pleae feel free to make this change to the hold you downloaded, if you so wish.

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06-15-2004 at 03:30 PM
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Mikko
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
2S1E can be completed without letting the tar grow.
06-16-2004 at 12:59 PM
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agaricus5
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
You might want to place a serpent chamber at the end of the route, with a one square wide passage for formation of a tar baby. This should force the tar to have to be grown all the way along the door chamber, which I assume is the intended solution.

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06-16-2004 at 03:53 PM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
is 2e really solvable
if I kill the mother the 2 babies at the bottom get trapped
if I don't kill the mother I end up unable to get to the bottom



[Edited by swann_88 on 06-17-2004 at 04:10 AM GMT]
06-17-2004 at 02:06 AM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
2E is indeed possible, you just need to time the murder of the Tar Mother correctly.

And I fixed 2S1E by extending the arrows one square to the left, shifting the four square assembly next to it over 1 square to make room, while preserving the purpose of the room. I just don't like adding another monster type to this room, though I did add some more yellow gates to keep the player active for the second half of the room. Thank you for spotting the trivial solution, and for the suggestion.

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06-17-2004 at 04:54 AM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
I think 1 & 2 s are fine as they are
2s1e is easier to do the intended way I think
it took me many tries to get the goblin to behave if I didn't grow the tar

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06-17-2004 at 05:11 AM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (+1)  
swann_88 wrote:
I think 1 & 2 s are fine as they are
2s1e is easier to do the intended way I think
it took me many tries to get the goblin to behave if I didn't grow the tar

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06-17-2004 at 05:27 AM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
obviously not since by the time I get to the size you are suggesting I have already lost :(
I will go struggle with it some more
06-17-2004 at 02:39 PM
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Scott
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
A few rooms I can't work out. Can someone give me a hint on the snake part of 1S. I have tried every sword orientation, I think, and either I die or I have a tar baby left that can't see me.
06-18-2004 at 12:47 AM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
finally got 2e with 1 move left on the counter
unfortunately was stupid enough to do it from the wrong room
so now I have to do 4 rooms over
still its easier than trying 2e again
scott
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any other rooms?

[Edited by swann_88 on 06-18-2004 at 12:18 AM GMT]
06-18-2004 at 01:16 AM
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Scott
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
Are you sure?

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Edit other rooms are 1E, 2E and 1N1E. Those are just matters of being faster. I was just a little slow on the 1 try I had for 1E haven't tried again yet.

2nd Edit: worked it out.
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[Edited by Scott on 06-18-2004 at 04:17 AM GMT]
06-18-2004 at 01:31 AM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
So how are you folks liking the hold, are you enjoying the challenge I tried to put in? Is it too difficult to hold interest?

Edit: Oh, and I'm updating the hold attached to the top of the thread, to include the fixes to 1N1E and 2S1E

[Edited by DiMono on 06-18-2004 at 04:28 AM GMT]

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06-18-2004 at 05:25 AM
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swann_88
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06-18-2004 at 02:36 PM
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eytanz
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
It's the kind of hold I would enjoy very, very much if I had a lot of free time to sit and work at its rooms until I solve them. At the moment, when my free time is too far and in between, it's not that great at sustaining my interest - by the time I figure out how to optimize my moves for one sub-section of a room, I have to stop playing, and then I have to start over from scratch the next day because I don't remember the right sequence of moves (the checkpoints help the rooms from becoming too repetetive but are too sparse to be really useful for saving the game and continuing).

In other words, I really like the hold, but it's not appropriate for very casual playing which is all I can afford at the moment.

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06-18-2004 at 03:40 PM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
ok I only have one room I haven't done
3e

shouldn't the gap in the snake be 2 squares
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scott

1e and 2e yes you just have to be faster
1n1e there is a trick to it I don't think getting faster will ever get you there

I can tell you, though, that 1N1E is not quite what you think it is.

[Edited by swann_88 on 06-19-2004 at 12:38 AM GMT: add quote from dimono]
06-19-2004 at 01:32 AM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (+1)  
swann_88 wrote:
3e

shouldn't the gap in the snake be 2 squares
Nope, that room is exactly as it's supposed to be. Are you sure you're approaching the problem from the right direction?

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06-19-2004 at 03:14 AM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
ah I see got it now
good room
06-19-2004 at 08:01 AM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
Alright, so a few people I'm sure have finished this hold by now... any overall feedback for me? Do you like it, not like it, bow to my authoring skill...

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06-19-2004 at 01:38 PM
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swann_88
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
well I am not finished
I will never be finished probably
since to finish I will have to redo 2e
I got it once I am sure I don't have the patience to get it again even though it looks so simple in the demo
1n2e I haven't figured out yet wondering what "is hidden"
2s really needs a separate check point at the top of the maze
I have done that maze so many times i can do it without looking at the screen
"bow to your authoring skill" is probably a bit extreme
but a good hold with a good mix of puzzles and efficiency
06-19-2004 at 06:28 PM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
Alright, so I just uploaded a new version of the hold with more checkpoints, now half the price!

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06-22-2004 at 02:09 AM
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DiMono
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
Alright, now the question of questions... should I release this hold the the Holds section, or should I let it live out its days here in Architecture? Does it hold up?

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06-27-2004 at 07:10 AM
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eytanz
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icon Re: New Hold: Tar Caves (0)  
I'd definitely say it holds up. It's hard to finish, but in a good way.

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06-27-2004 at 02:27 PM
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