Blondbeard
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Ah! Thanks, Lamkin. Anyway... The Vat Keeper escape seems a bit buggy. If you exit the room before the Vat Keeper he just vanishes, and it is possible to catch up with him, and it is possible to follow him through the door, which I assume is the point of the chase?

12th Archivist
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File: Break Out of Jail grand.drh (64.2 KB)
Downloaded 56 times.
License: Public Domain

Lamkin wrote:

Blondbeard wrote:
And there is only one preasure plate in Cell Block D 1S, and that one does not open the door blocking access to the Lucky Greckle. I still don't understand.

There is another Lucky Greckle in Cell Block A: 1W.

Oh! That's the Lucky Greckle you were talking about!

Here's the latest version. With all of the finishing touches I wanted to add, this is hopefully the version that I will upload several hours from now.

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12th Archivist
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The 24-hours is up! I have now submitted the hold!

Of course, I can still edit the hold while it is in the process. However, you testers are not the only ones that will see the hold. In addition, there may or may not be much time for you to catch all the bugs and post them yourselves, depending on how long it takes for the hold to be put on the holds board (or rejected, for whatever reason).

____________________________
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Blondbeard
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What!!! Why? If no-one have played through the hold this version could even be impossible to complete, as have some of your previous versions. I seriously hope you have played it through from start to finnish yourself, otherwise it would have been a lot better to wait for your testers to finnish the hold. Sure it could have taken some days, but it's the proper way to do things. HA's should only have to face holds the architect KNOWS is the final version.

Having said that I can understand why you are eager, but HAs have a heavy enough workload that it's rude to ask them to play through something that might be impossible (even if it's a small risk).

12th Archivist
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What I meant was any changes that I would make if the HA's or other hold testers wanted me to make. I didn't mean changes that meant the line between impossible and possible. I already know this hold is possible.

EDIT: I played through other versions successfully, but the changes between that version and this one were not significant or impacted gameplay. In other words, the latest version was not tested by me because it wasn't particularly different from a previous version that I did conquer. Nevertheless, I shall play through it again, just to be absolutely certain this version is possible.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

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[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 08-23-2010 05:37 AM]

Blondbeard
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Please do that, and I am doing the same thing right now. And I have caught something that is probably unintended, but which in no way is required to fix. The Convict Catcher Beaten scorepoint triggers right after the cutscene, not after you beat him.

Blondbeard
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The Accessory chain seems to be seriously broken. You can use the hand-bomb to kill the alternate boss, instead of using it to kill the obsidian statue. Mxvladi solved that issue by placing his final boss on a closed door. Then the hand-bomb can't harm the boss.

Edit: Also: What happens if you use the Pick Axe on the square the scroll says you shouldn't use it at, and then use the wall walk to get the VIP card. Then the accessory chain is also broken. I guess you have already prevented this somehow, judging by that scroll?

Please note that it works out a bit buggy if you use the portable orb on the black door protecting the alternate ending staircase.

Edit 2: The cut scene in Imperial Defense 3N5E is way of if you use the Pick Axe instead of the Grappling Hook to progress.

Edit 3: I would guess that the Vat Keeper is impossible to beat the intended way right now. I collected the invisibility potion, but it still requires 21600 HP to beat him. No way that I could get that many, or do anything so diferently as to matter. I see that there are two Speed Potions. Perhaps you want me to drink both a speed potion AND an invisibility potion before going into battle with the Vat Keeper? The black door blocks me from doing that, however.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-23-2010 11:37 AM]

12th Archivist
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Blondbeard wrote:
The Accessory chain seems to be seriously broken. You can use the hand-bomb to kill the alternate boss, instead of using it to kill the obsidian statue. Mxvladi solved that issue by placing his final boss on a closed door. Then the hand-bomb can't harm the boss.

That is problematic. I will fix that in perhaps twenty minutes from now.

Edit: Also: What happens if you use the Pick Axe on the square the scroll says you shouldn't use it at, and then use the wall walk to get the VIP card. Then the accessory chain is also broken. I guess you have already prevented this somehow, judging by that scroll?

Yes indeed. I couldn't think of a non-scripted method that prevented the player from using a pickaxe but still required the use of the wall walk. I shall fix this soon.

Please note that it works out a bit buggy if you use the portable orb on the black door protecting the alternate ending staircase.

Well, you shouldn't have to. I'll look into this.

Edit 2: The cut scene in Imperial Defense 3N5E is way of if you use the Pick Axe instead of the Grappling Hook to progress.

You mean the cutscene still triggers? I know. I'll get that fixed.

Edit 3: I would guess that the Vat Keeper is impossible to beat the intended way right now. I collected the invisibility potion, but it still requires 21600 HP to beat him. No way that I could get that many, or do anything so diferently as to matter. I see that there are two Speed Potions. Perhaps you want me to drink both a speed potion AND an invisibility potion before going into battle with the Vat Keeper? The black door blocks me from doing that, however.

I'll admit, I didn't test the secret boss much after raising >her< stats when I got a comment saying the secret boss was beatable without a speed potion or invisibility potion. I'll get this fixed.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

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Blondbeard
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My stats before trying the Vat Keeper: 5541 (could be a bit higher)/ 599/636/10/0/1/1. Another problem is that there's a lack of green keys compared to other keys. I had to use two skelleton keys as green keys, and I still felt I was a bit conservative. I know where I could save two green keys though, so there's no serius need to fix this, but it could be nice if you could like trade five yellow keys for two green ones at some point.

Edit: We decided to reject the hold from promotion right now, since the HA process is supposed to be reserved for finnished holds. Don't worry though. The hold is very good. It just needs those few finnishing touches.

Edit 2: There's another cut scene that needs an "if" expansion. The cut scene when you open the blue door in the first level is just wrong if you have already fooled the guard to drop the door permanently. I opened the blue door when I played on the final level, and still got the cut scene.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 08-24-2010 07:30 AM]

The Stew Boy
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 247
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Some thoughts/questions:

- Releasing the water back on Block D does not affect the pit in the top left-hand corner of 3N3E. (What's the point of releasing the water anyway? I don't see why a bit of HP and a couple ATK and DEF gems are worth a blue key.)

- Are you supposed to be able to kill the gel mother in Imperial Defence: 6N7E in four hits?

- If you spend a couple green keys in ID: 5N5E, you can get the health and blue key almost for free, is this intentional?

- I found it amusing that the serpent in 4N6E dealt less damage (0) than the adder (about 400).

- In ID: 3N 6E, I went partway up the plate chain with the brain, killed it, then jumped back and killed the adder, and was thus able to get the Slayer's rewards a bit out of order. Is this bad?

- I never used the second merchant, because it seemed to give a worse deal - 4 times the money and 3 times the HP for 3 times the ATK and less than 3 times the DEF, IIRC.

- I didn't get anywhere along the accessory chain (unless you count the hook/flippers). I'm assuming it starts with that lucky greckle back in block A? I accidentally spent a green key on that without noticing, but didn't end up needing it anyway.

- Is there truly no way to get back to the main part of Imperial Defence after you jump across the trapdoors?

- Also, what am I supposed to use either speed potion on (although I didn't go for the one in block A), considering that I can't bring either across to the final part?

My final stats (just before finishing) were:
HP 410
ATK 511
DEF 571
GR 23653
REP 41584
Keys 7/1/1/1
RBS, OS, Grappling hook

Nice hold! I've been updating and playing it every few revisions, and this is the first time I got further than a few rooms into Imperial Defence - maybe because I was brave enough to actually use the first merchant (not until I had reached the last level and had 8000 GR, though).

Blondbeard
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Yes, the accessory chain starts with the Lucky Greckle. And if you go for the accessory chain you will be able to return from the part of ID you're refering to. And you can bring the speedpotions over to the final part (if you follow the accessory chain). You can also use the speedpotion before the final part, e.g. to get some gems, or to kill the guard in the room where you find the potion.

Tim
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Blondbeard wrote:
Don't worry though. The hold is very good. It just needs those few finnishing touches.

I'd say the hold needs a lot of polish.

For example, if you kill the cell keepers (all of them) directly from behind, the hold get stuck.

Or that you get a scorepoint for the boss in block B before you kill it.

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Blondbeard
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If you want it really polished I agree. Still not too much, I think.

12th Archivist
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Tim wrote:

Blondbeard wrote:
Don't worry though. The hold is very good. It just needs those few finnishing touches.

I'd say the hold needs a lot of polish.

I fixed the bugs you mentioned. What other things need polish? After all, you did mention a lot of polish, leading me to believe there are many things that could do with work.

EDIT:

The Stew Boy wrote:
Some thoughts/questions:

- Releasing the water back on Block D does not affect the pit in the top left-hand corner of 3N3E. (What's the point of releasing the water anyway? I don't see why a bit of HP and a couple ATK and DEF gems are worth a blue key.)

Got that fixed. I figured that the gems and HP may seriously help the player if they didn't play through Cell Block D very well.

- Are you supposed to be able to kill the gel mother in Imperial Defence: 6N7E in four hits?

Yep. You can cut any path through the gel.

- If you spend a couple green keys in ID: 5N5E, you can get the health and blue key almost for free, is this intentional?

Yes. Does the player have a lot of green keys? Maybe I should change that...

- I found it amusing that the serpent in 4N6E dealt less damage (0) than the adder (about 400).

The serpent deals a fifty damage less than the adder. It is pretty funny, but that might make the rewards too easy to get.

- In ID: 3N 6E, I went partway up the plate chain with the brain, killed it, then jumped back and killed the adder, and was thus able to get the Slayer's rewards a bit out of order. Is this bad?

It's unintended. I fixed this by replacing the pit between the adder and the brain with walls.

- I never used the second merchant, because it seemed to give a worse deal - 4 times the money and 3 times the HP for 3 times the ATK and less than 3 times the DEF, IIRC.

Hmm... I do agree that the second merchant is more costly than the first... I'll change this is the soon-to-be released version.

- I didn't get anywhere along the accessory chain (unless you count the hook/flippers). I'm assuming it starts with that lucky greckle back in block A? I accidentally spent a green key on that without noticing, but didn't end up needing it anyway.

Yep. That's how you start the accessory chain.

- Is there truly no way to get back to the main part of Imperial Defence after you jump across the trapdoors?

There is a way. You just need to think outside the box.

- Also, what am I supposed to use either speed potion on (although I didn't go for the one in block A), considering that I can't bring either across to the final part?

The speed potion in IP: 3N 4E is used to make the puzzle in that room a lot less devastating to your hit points. It shouldn't be able to be taken out of the room, at least without significant HP loss.
The speed potion in Block A can be used on almost anything, but it is part of the accessory chain and is supposed to be used in Cell Block D: 1S 1W.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

---

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 09-13-2010 02:25 AM]

Tim
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12th Archivist wrote:
I fixed the bugs you mentioned. What other things need polish? After all, you did mention a lot of polish, leading me to believe there are many things that could do with work.

To be honest, it's some time ago now, and I forgot most of them.

I can only remember writing down the stuff in my previous post that would be HA comments anyway (ie. game breaking bugs). And it saves us one less HA testing round. Polish is of lesser importance anyway.

I would suggest you to double check the cell keepers though and make sure that they are not cutscene-breaking after your fix. (This is not meant as condescending in any way, it's just that I've seen many, many holds that had cutscene problems, even after fixing.)


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Blondbeard
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One potential trap is if the cut scene requires the villin to esqape along a pre-determined path. What then if Tendry blocks the first escape square (that is if you've used an accessory to attack the bad guy from behind).

The Stew Boy
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The speed potion in IP: 3N 4E is used to make the puzzle in that room a lot less devastating to your hit points. It shouldn't be able to be taken out of the room, at least without significant HP loss.

Why? I'm perfectly able to do the room just through using the RBS to block the beams. I don't need the speed potion, or even the fegundo that appears. Net result is one free speed potion for use, (almost) anywhere I want.

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[Last edited by The Stew Boy at 09-13-2010 07:25 AM]

Tim
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12th Archivist wrote:

- If you spend a couple green keys in ID: 5N5E, you can get the health and blue key almost for free, is this intentional?

Yes. Does the player have a lot of green keys? Maybe I should change that...

Any (good) player would have keys left at a far point in any hold, unless the hold is so designed that all of the keys must be used before. That would make the hold very boring though (this doesn't mean that you're not allowed to make your hold boring).

- Also, what am I supposed to use either speed potion on (although I didn't go for the one in block A), considering that I can't bring either across to the final part?

The speed potion in IP: 3N 4E is used to make the puzzle in that room a lot less devastating to your hit points. It shouldn't be able to be taken out of the room, at least without significant HP loss.

I would leave that room as it is (at least the part with that potion). Even though I didn't use the potion, I believe it's better to leave it there.

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Blondbeard
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1) Where is the latest version of this hold?

2) Is this version a version you would like tested, or are there any planned changes?

12th Archivist
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Here's a new version. In this post. Please report any bugs or unpolished areas. I would really, really like to see this get finished.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

---

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 09-26-2010 11:23 PM]

Blondbeard
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Wierd thing 1: If you use the portable orb in Imperial Defense 5N2E you will get the cu scene as if you've chased the vat-keeper even though you haven't. I suspect using the warp-token or the wall walk or the pick axe will result in something similar.

A fix would be to use two doors. One door blocking the entrance, enabeling the possibility to use the warp token, and one door two steps down, so that no single acessory will do the trick.

Note that you can also trap the Vat Keeper with your sword. Not really a bug, but I get the feeling you are not suposed to catch her. This might be hard to fix, though.

With my previous save I'm 2000 lives short of beating the Vat Keeper. I think it ought to be possible, but if you want to make sure you could add some yellow keys for potions sites were you get around 200 lives per door. I have eleven keys, so that would do the trick. Of cours I'll have to play the latest version from start to finnish to be sure.

Perhaps not worthy of atention (a polish thingy): If you use the pick axe at 2,10 of Imperial Defense 3N5E the character will say "at least I can go back and forth" even though he can't, since you dropped a trap door behind you. No-one will do this, though, except when testing if the scripting is perfect.

That's all I can find by just looking at the hold, and using previous saves. Have you added more green keys that is possible to collect? Do you want to adress any of these issues before I start playing again?

Also I am constantly short of time right now, so I probably won't be a speedy tester.

12th Archivist
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I've changed some of those things. New version in this next post.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

---

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 10-02-2010 04:15 AM]

ijack7
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12th Archivist wrote:
I've changed some of those things. New version in this post.

The flood routine in cell block D is not working correctly. It floods the room that you are in but nothing else so you can't get to the items in the room to the south by using the raft. I don't use the flood but decided to check it out since an earlier post had said it wasn't working right.

12th Archivist
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I changed a few things regarding the flood script, but I don't see the problem, despite testing it a few times. Can you be more specific?

New version in this next post.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

---

[Last edited by 12th Archivist at 10-03-2010 01:35 AM]

ijack7
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12th Archivist wrote:
I changed a few things regarding the flood script, but I don't see the problem, despite testing it a few times. Can you be more specific?

New version in this post.

Sorry I wasn't specific enough. Here's what I was talking about.
In cellblock D:3N2E if you use a blue key on the blue door, the cut scene for the flood runs and the room is flooded. But then if you go south to 2N2E, that room is not flooded and so you cannot use the raft to get to the items on the east wall. I will run your new version to see if it fixes the problem.

12th Archivist
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File: Break Out of Jail.drh (65.6 KB)
Downloaded 48 times.
License: Public Domain

Fixed it. I tested all the possibilities I could think of and they all worked as intended.

I want to submit this soon. Any outstanding problems or even minor polishing errors that haven't already been mentioned?

New version in this post.

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

12th Archivist
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Any last comments?

____________________________
It was going well until it exploded.
~Scott Manley

Check out the DROD Wikia project here!

Blondbeard
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I don't have a lot of time right now. Have you played it through yourself? Solved the alternate ending?

ijack7
Level: Roachling
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12th Archivist wrote:
Any last comments?

I played the game all the way through and didn't find any problems, but I didn't use the accessory chain because I don't know how to get the lucky greckle to get started. If a hint would get me started, I will do that part of the game as well. The parts that I have played are very good.

Tim
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12th Archivist wrote:
Any last comments?

My comment is that you should make sure yourself that your hold level set is completable. (ie. walking through any one set of exit stairs.) You might want to prepare a (very short version of) a walkthrough. It doesn't need to be much, but it would be nice to know what your stats are at the start of each new level. You don't have to, but if you do it would make my testing a lot faster.

As for the accessory chain, I don't think it's possible at all to get the lucky greckle. Note that according to the HA rules, that's fine for me as long as all the (hidden) rooms is reachable in one way or another.

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[Last edited by Tim at 10-06-2010 10:37 PM]