Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Blondbeard wrote:
Do you want me to re-post the whole thing?

No need at all, thank you

Edit: No reward at all for defeting the tar mother seems a bit... less than fun

Yes, I'm afraid that's something else you'll have to wait for. And I'll make a fuller reply to your posts when I've had time to think about what they mean in terms of my decisions for the hold and maybe test a few things. But thank you very much for all your help!

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Just a thought. You use ATK bottlenecks quite muchley. What about DEF bottlenecks? Rattlesnakes is a real DEF bottleneck, since it will continue to do much damage until you reach DEF 180. Basically any monster with an extreme amount of HP and a not too impressive ATK or DEF is an DEF bottleneck. The extreme would be a monster with DEF 1, HP 100 000 and ATK X, where X is what you have to get in DEF before you can proceed. Kind of like Wubas, but reversed.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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There may be one wing of one level that centres around snakes I just know I need to be very careful, because (1) there's no way to make a snake with custom stats, and (2) if the player can get snakes down to zero damage then he can get a huge number of greckles by killing them tail-end first, which is a nice reward for optimisation if it's one snake (e.g. the one in Tendry's Tale, Goblin Tribe) but a potential hold-breaker if it's lots.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
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Length two snakes, or snakes where you can just reach the head solves that problem And DEF bottlenecks would make the choise between DEF and ATK more interesting.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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What will make the choice more interesting is when I get round to adding the wing with Goblin-Biter, so that you don't have to kill Ogres to survive Central Fourth and beat the Emperor (Ogres aren't weak to the GB, but the wing is designed so you don't necessarily have to kill any.)

Anyway, at this stage in the hold it would definitely be inappropriate to make it possible for the player to reach 140 DEF (that's enough to reduce a Rattlesnake's damage to a few hundred, making it worth thinking about killing it); but there will be more use of Rattlesnakes when we get up to the Fifth Floor. And possibly some of the other enemies will also give you interesting choices. We'll have to see.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Slight update. Shield now costs 600GR in addition to having to beat the Trainer before you can reach it. I've added three rooms to Central Fourth, containing an HP vendor (800 for 800GR), a secret room that rewards the player for reaching 176 ATK (hence probably best to leave this till later) and an Orc who tells you about the Goblin Temple in East Fourth, a wing that's fairly low on my priority list, so don't spend the blue key to reach it yet.

I also changed the water in the Rattlesnake room to pit and added an orthosquare, so that I can add flippers and a grappling hook to the hold later if I choose without this room becoming a Horn of Plenty. (Literally -- you could have got infinite power-ups from it!)

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Hold updated!! West Second Floor is complete, and the Goblin-Biter is at last available. Hope you enjoy trapdoor puzzles. (If not, they can all be skipped by sacrificing keys, and I've added a room where you can get more keys for greckles. I also fiddled with a couple of merchants' prices elsewhere in the hold.)

Now if you kill the High Emperor with the short sword, your sword is upgraded to Goblin-Biter automatically. (This is to reward the player for achieving this, as it allows them to keep the Portable Orb. There will be enemies later that absolutely require the GB.) I'm going to add a dude to the Library later who explains this interesting property of Goblin Emperor blood, but it's too late to get that done tonight.

One of the secret rooms is empty, for now, but that won't affect the play of the rest of the level. Enjoy!

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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IMO this latest update contains what could be a serious mistake in concept. In regular DROD replay value lies in optimization, and memory loss (forgeting what it was you did, and get the same great feeling after solving a room). In DROD RPG replay value lies in doing things diferently, and you will furthermore want to experiment a great deal (take that path first, reload, take another path first.) Too many "real" puzzles makes this timeconsuming, repetitious and a bit boring. In DROD you have to do each trap door puzzle once. In DROD RPG you might have to do it say three times.

I think the Daniel puzzles had aproximatly the right size for puzzles within an RPG level, and I also think you might have added too many too big trapdoor puzzles in the west wing of level 2. And, yes. I know you can bypass the puzzles if you have the keys, and are willing to sacrifice them.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Hmm, I do see what you're saying, but on the other hand I'm not sure what I can do about it. If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to listen.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Here's the deal. I like the puzzles as puzzles, but the thought of playing through the same puzzle multiple times is not so nice. My prime sugestion would be to trust the player. Add a character blocking the way, and when you aproach him he says something like: "I am the divine, transdimensional guardian. If you have solved this puzzle before I won't stand in your way. Have you?" And then you get the alternative to anser "I've solved this puzzle before." and the guardian disappears, or to answer "I haven't solved this puzzle before." Of course you need more alternatives for the puzzles you can solve partly...

After all: Everyone who plays this do so for a love of puzzles and logical thinking. Most of us won't skip a puzzle by lying to a character (I think).

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 01-03-2009 01:13 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Done Thank you for the idea!

Edit: I just realised that my placement of the guardian also serves as a shortcut back to the rest of level after going round the trapdoor puzzles. That's definitely a good thing!

Edit: Rescripted the guardian to behave differently depending on whether you approach him from the north or south (before or after going round the trapdoor-puzzle loop). He will now give you the +2 DEF from the gem in 2N6W if you haven't taken it, but if you get it from him, the gem will be gone if you enter the room later.

Final edit: I'm in a generous mood tonight. I made the doors in 1N8W open if you enter the room from the south without ever crossing it in the other direction, so if you use the guardian to skip the puzzles you can still reach 2N8W.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 01-03-2009 02:26 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Hold updated, and sorry about the long delay

I've done about half of North Fourth Floor, including the blue key. I was going to do 6N and 7N before uploading, but I'm too tired right now So it's recommended that you enter this wing through the stairs in North Third Floor rather than the northbound corridor from Fourth Floor: 2N.

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Further updated!

North Fourth Floor is now complete! Most important news is that the next big boss, the Ogre Lord, is present and ready for combat, and you get some nice plot advancement (plus a bit more if you rescue the Chancellor). I've done the same as before -- gone ahead and put in the boss fight first, so Blondbeard can boast about beating him already, and next I'll put in some more areas that will be reachable before the boss fight so other players also have a chance. To be precise, next I'll develop West Third Floor, which is only reachable after beating the Tar Mother (so there will, indeed, be a reward for that fight).

Other small changes in this version: I switched round the speed potion and Elixir in the briar rooms on the First Floor, and added two more chaps to the Library in Central Third. One of them tells you about Goblin-Biter, the other tells you about the shield you get for beating the Guard Trainer.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-06-2009 12:00 AM]

Fang
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 175
Registered: 07-25-2008
IP: Logged

I began playing and I have to say, I don't know where I'm going. Is there a clear "path" or it's a free-way; you can head to any South or North area once you find them? If there's a path, what's the monster hierarchy strength? (It was fairly obvious in Tendry's Tale and other holds, using normal monsters that got stronger with each level, but since Nobard's hold moves north-south and up-down, I'm never sure what monster is stronger than the other. And playing around with the editor made me exit the hold via some stairs unintentionally. >.>)

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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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It's a bit half-and-half. There are certain landmarks that have to be done in order, but in between those you can tackle the different areas in any order, and often it's most profitable to go back and forth rather than completing one area before starting another.

Here's a rough guide to the areas in order of monster strength. Ones on the same line are roughly level; ones in parentheses are not yet built but are on the list because they will come before the Ogre Lord.

South 1F
South 2F
South 3F, Central 2F
Central 1F, South 4F
Royal Guard
West 2F, North 3F, East 3F, Central 4F
(West 3F), (North 2F), North 4F
Ogre Lord

And yes, any stairs that are meant to go to a not-yet-built area will end the hold for the moment.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-06-2009 12:09 AM]

Fang
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 175
Registered: 07-25-2008
IP: Logged

I've noticed that you changed a green key to a yellow key in 6s1e in the second floor. I had the hold a few versions ago and only decided to really try it now, so I got the new version and it changed. Or perhaps there wasn't any green key there at all?

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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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I can't remember everything I've changed since I started the hold and the South Second Floor is one of the earliest areas, but I'm pretty sure 6S1E never had a green key.

Slight update: I've added the last few rooms to Central Third Floor, including the bridge to West Third. There's nothing on the other side as yet....

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-06-2009 04:18 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

A new wing has been added -- West First Floor, the Snakepits! Blondbeard wanted some Rattlesnakes, and now you've got some -- as well as a few nice bonuses including one very special potion....

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50th Skywatcher

Fang
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 175
Registered: 07-25-2008
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I've checked Blondbeard's guide and somewhere between level 1 and 2 (first time you step inside the 2nd), there's a mysterious 8 greckles missing. Further ahead, this is leading to some serious lack of greckles, as it seems the pit between BB's and our pool of greckles grows larger somehow. By following it, I couldn't step in floor 3 with the stats he had saved up in his walkthrough.

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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." -Albert Einstein

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Well, this is bizarre. I had a go myself following his walkthrough exactly, and I got the same result you did.

These are the crucial lines (my notes in italics):

Get key and potion in 6S2W. HP 293, GR 3.

Get green key in 7S. HP 47.
(Involves killing two spiders. GR 3 + 16 = 19.)

Get key and potion in 5S1E. HP 61, ATK 29.
(Kill roach and wraithwing. GR 19 + 5 = 24. The key/ATK discrepancy is just a slip on Blondbeard's part, not a change to the room.)

Get potions and ATK in 6S1E. HP 155, ATK 30. (Worth it to sacrifice a yellow key here, I think).
(Kill roach and wraithwing. GR 24 + 5 = 29.)

Kill Stanley in 5S2E and get the potions. Checkpoint values 31/30/11/2/0/0. HP181.
(Stanley gives 20GR for a total of 49.)

Second floor:
Obtain ATK in 5S1E. HP 58, ATK 32
(Kill a spider. GR 49 + 8 = 57.)

First floor:
Obtain potion in 5S1W. HP 99 GR 67.
(Kill a roach. GR 57 + 2 = 59.)

But my playthrough ends up with the same HP as Blondbeard, so he can't have different monsters in his version of the hold -- there are no one-shottable monsters this early on -- and it can't be anything to do with greckle gates because the difference is not a multiple of 10. So I really don't know what's happened.

However, don't be discouraged from continuing with the hold! Blondbeard's walkthrough is an example of how to play the hold optimally; you don't need to do anything like so well just to complete it.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 02-07-2009 12:53 AM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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That's really wierd. I'm a bit buissy now, but I hope to be able to look inte the new goodness of Nobard's hold eventually. And it's plain silly that I haven't sent a PM about your book yet. Basically I liked it. You have the gift of writing in a pretty slow pace (not much action), and still making it intersesting for the reader.

Mikko
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 276
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I've noticed that there are some small errors in the text of the walkthrough, but the actual path does work for the early part (I haven't followed it to the end yet). Regarding the green key, the walkthrough refers to 6S1E, but it should actually be 7S1E.

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Would you like me to play through this again, Nuntar, or might I just as well wait for new material?

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Entirely up to you... I'm afraid I haven't had time to DROD for a while, so new material will be slow in coming. Conversely, now that you've proved it's possible to beat the High Emperor without Goblin-Biter there's not really much more testing you can usefully do, since I feel that's a big enough achievement that it doesn't matter any more if things become easy after that -- I want to reward the player for achieving that, while making sure the hold can still be completed by players who aren't able to achieve that challenge. So, while I won't complain if you tell me your stats after beating the Ogre Lord, I'm not going to give them very much weight in building the hold from that point on.

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50th Skywatcher

reyll3
Level: Delver

Rank Points: 33
Registered: 01-01-2007
IP: Logged

Is


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A cat

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Hey Nuntar, do you still have the hold somewhere? I was scrolling through all RPG Architecture posts to see whether there was anything more to see, but I couldn't find a hold file attached to any of your posts. It seems like you've put some work into it, so I'd love to play Nobard's Hold!

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4592
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Hi, thanks for showing interest, it's certainly been a long time

I removed all the old attachments because I've started work on Nobard's Hold 3.0, another complete revamp now that I know a bit more about RPG architecture (and my writing has improved a little) than when I started. I do still have the original (and 2.0) installed in my copy of RPG, so I can transfer rooms to the new version. If you really want to play the original hold, I guess I could share it with you privately, but I'd really rather consider it an abandoned draft and concentrate on the 3.0 version.

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50th Skywatcher

Midootje
Level: Master Delver
Rank Points: 109
Registered: 03-05-2011
IP: Logged

Hey Nuntar, my bad! I was scrolling through the posts in chronological order, downloading everything that seemed worth playing. Little did I know there was a post called 'Nobard's Hold 2' further along that path I'll look that one up, and of course I'll be waiting for version 3.0 if that's what you're planning to make. Good luck using your fresh RPG and writing knowledge on it!

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Don't worry, be happy, and slice monsters. You'll probably do better than me at all three.