Nuntar
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Blondbeard wrote:
Also: Did you know that nifty manouvering can save you from the extra hit from the swords? That's a quite nice feature, even if it might be unintended.

I certainly did know that The intention is that the attentive player should work this out by experiment in the first room -- where the extra hit is worth 600+ HP, so you can't fail to notice it -- and then can try to apply it to the next room -- where the extra hits aren't so costly but as there are four enemies to dodge it would be tough to learn to do this without having had the first room for practice.

Somethings messed up with the second guard training area. I think the red doors for proceeding, and picking up the gem and potion should be closed to begin with.

Can you tell me exactly what the problem is? In playtesting the room I had problems if I inadvertently started from a non-edge square and entered the arena before the Neather hit the other orb, but you can't do that in the actual game.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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Yes you can. I did it. I'll play around with it some more.

Answer: If you enter the room, and exits directly.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-24-2008 04:40 PM]

Nuntar
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Ah, I see the problem. Fixed that, and made the orbs in 8N a bit harder to reach.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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I think it's possible to complete the training area. At least it was from an old save.

Nuntar
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OK. Could you post your stats, and also which places you visited after the Royal Guard fight to get the HP necessary for acquiring the sword and beating the training fights?

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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It's a bit irrelevant, but alright: 838 (368/121/58/5/0/0). Areas visited will follow.

Nuntar
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I'm not sure why you say it's irrelevant, but perhaps you meant you've already realised what I was about to say -- that it's impossible for me to decide whether and how much the difficulty of this fight needs to be changed, given that the other areas you can reach before this fight are not designed yet? And you'd be quite right. I hope you can be extra-patient with me; I'm finding this a very challenging hold to design, given the open-ended structure. What I will do is complete the next areas (north wing of 3F needs finishing, hobgoblin area needs doing, and there's also the west wing of 2F, though I want to hear more about Lamkin's progress before I make decisions about that). Then I'll see if the difficulty is right in terms of how those areas work together as a whole and prepare the player for the next main boss (the Ogre Lord in the north wing of 4F). Unfortunately this may mean that you'll have to do some backtracking at that point if you want to continue to help test this.... I'm sorry about that, but I'm really grateful for your help so far and I won't ever pressure you to do more than you're willing to

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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Actually I meant that the stats where from an exploration where there where more potions in the tar area (although I did beat both Todal and the royal guard, which was a bit unnecesarry this far in the game). And don't worry. I'll try to replay the entire hold once enough new material is added. This far you've managed wonderfully. And I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. I feel that this process has to be a bit trial and errorish. Try to backup save older versions, and add in new material. We testers will probably be able to tell you if anything goes broken. Also: Kudos for making the first choise where DEF is worth 2*ATK. This far in the hold it has always been worth it to pick ATK before DEF.

Also: You might want to tell the player where certain things are. Like the shortsword. If you have 4 areas to choose from, and needs a sword you also want some pointer as to where that sword is.

Nuntar
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Updated again!

I've added a guy in 3:1N who tells you about the two places you can get a short sword. More importantly, I've finished building the north wing of the Third Floor, which now includes another bonus if you saved Edward, and a hint about the Goblin Biter!

This will be the last update for a while as I'm going to be visiting my sister. I'll try to get back on with it as soon as I can though!

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-28-2008 03:12 PM]

Blondbeard
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Then I'll try to really play through it this time

Edit: The Edward stairs still ends the hold, making rescuing him less atractive. Also: you can make a soulless slay another soulless in the guard training As it shold be?

Edit again: Todal beaten with a score of 1374. HP 8588, ATK 141, DEF 105, 7,2,1 keys. You can really start collecting lives once you can beat tarbabies in two hits! Tar Mother defeted: Score 1387 HP 7713, ATK 144, DEF 105, 9,2,1. And by this point I have many, many greckles 2800, to be exact, and I think I have bought everything I can buy up untill now. And once you reach Tar Baby attack in defense you will be able to cash in a lot of greckles. Perhaps you can add some bonuses for the effective greckle collector later. Perhaps even enough to make the player have to choose?

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-29-2008 11:21 AM]

Blondbeard
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Okay... I have now done everything, taken everything that's worthwile (and some that wasn't). My stats are as follows: HP 7555, Atk 147, Def 108, yellow keys 11, green keys 4, blue keys 1, greckles 3094. There are several keys I could still get, but they are still too expensive, and I don't really need them right now. I think my stats are at least quite optimal. It's the stats of someone who knows where things are, and has a plan about in which order to do things. I think my next project regarding this hold will be to play it, and intentionally miss some secrets, to see if it's possible anyway. Some secrets might be tough to miss out on, I think.

Someone Else
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I have been following this hold. My best stats are:
325 HP
65 ATK
40 DEF
99 GR
1 Yellow key

I've found it quite hard, and I know that I can do way better. Right now, I've just entered level 4, and I haven't beat Todal or the royal guard. But if you're worrying that it'll be too easy to beat, don't. It's definitely hard enough.

Is the three yellow keys, two attack and one defense behind the spider and the green door ever worth it? I think I skipped most of the powerups on the first level.

Great hold!

Nuntar
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Just got back, so I still won't have time to update for a while, but I wanted to respond to the above posts nonetheless.

Yes, the stairs in 3:1E still end the hold and will continue to do so until I've built up to 5:1E. There is, however, a second Edward-related bonus in the levels built so far unconnected with these stairs.

I am aware that the Minions can be made to kill each other, and I posted about this in Feature Requests, but if this feature never gets added I won't mind leaving it in as something the more aware player can choose to do to make his life easier. (Originally I had a Minion fighting alongside the Royal Guard, but that fight was completely ruined when he killed the Guard, so I had to leave the Minion out.)

Yes, my intention was that soon you have to kill a lot of tar babies to get enough greckles to purchase the Long Sword, and that it should be impossible to get the babies down to zero damage before this purchase. Still, if you can get your ATK up to 141 already something is seriously broken... I'll have to look into this again.

The large surplus of yellow keys doesn't bother me that much; as you get higher and higher up the tower you'll find more and more bonuses where you can cash in two or three keys at a time for some power-ups.

Two questions for Blondbeard: are your latest stats (finishing with 7500 HP etc.) from a version before I toned down the potions in the tar rooms? I also

(To Someone Else: )
I always get that secret room in my playthroughs, but usually not at the first opportunity. It is very likely worth it, because for two green keys (40pts) you get three yellows, 2 ATK and 1 DEF (total 43pts) plus points for all the HP saved by having those power-ups. The only question is whether there's a better place to use two greens and whether this is the best room to skip to save the greens. So far it looks like the answer's a definite no, since Blondbeard is finishing with 4 green keys to spare, but we'll see.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-01-2008 01:11 AM]

Blondbeard
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Nuntar wrote:


Yes, my intention was that soon you have to kill a lot of tar babies to get enough greckles to purchase the Long Sword, and that it should be impossible to get the babies down to zero damage before this purchase. Still, if you can get your ATK up to 141 already something is seriously broken... I'll have to look into this again.

The large surplus of yellow keys doesn't bother me that much; as you get higher and higher up the tower you'll find more and more bonuses where you can cash in two or three keys at a time for some power-ups.

Two questions for Blondbeard: are your latest stats (finishing with 7500 HP etc.) from a version before I toned down the potions in the tar rooms?

It's in the latest version. Also: It turns out it's difficult to skip secret rooms. I set out with the goal to skip at least one secret per level. But after a while it kind of snowballs away. I choose to skip secrets containing green keys in both level 1 and level 2, and I think I still have a chance, but only because I used the "minions kills each other" feature to the maximum level. I only had to kill one soulless in the guard training area.

In my best runthrough I saved Edward in time to get the second Edward related reward. What was your second question?

Dex Stewart
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I'm curious, what's the earliest possible that you can save this Edward dude, who I've yet to save in any playthrough?

And one thing you should note is that it is impossible to access 1F 1S 1W, as there's a secret wall missing. Something similar is the case with 1N 1E, though I remember the secret wall being there initially, so you might have removed it on purpose.

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 12-01-2008 09:24 PM]

Dex Stewart
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I'm sorry to break your hold (again), but even though it's harder, it's still possible to get 68 ATT before the Master Brains.
And I was wondering wether you were planning to make the player actually need the shield. It is, after all, a blue key you're saving if you don't take the shield.

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 12-01-2008 09:29 PM]

Blondbeard
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Dex Stewart wrote:
I'm curious, what's the earliest possible that you can save this Edward dude, who I've yet to save in any playthrough?

And one thing you should note is that it is impossible to access 1F 1S 1W, as there's a secret wall missing. Something similar is the case with 1N 1E, though I remember the secret wall being there initially, so you might have removed it on purpose.

The room you're refering to is accessable alright. I don't know what the parameter asks of me, but the wall changes to secret once you've completed something. And you can save Edward quite early. As far as I recall you can save him before beating the double brains. As it is now it's pointless to save him too early, since that will just open up a way to some stairs that ends the hold, but he does preform the useful service of killing a swordsman, who would have cost 1200 lives later on. Actually I don't see a huge problem with beeing able to reach Atk 68 before the double brains. Sure, you save 800 lives, but that's about it. And it costs you a bit to do things in that order, so I don't think you save that many lives.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 12-01-2008 09:48 PM]

Nuntar
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Hi everyone, thanks for continuing testing and discussion of this hold. As stated earlier, even though I'm back from my travels I can't update immediately, so thanks for continuing to be patient.

When I made the decision to replace the ATK gem in 3:7S2E with DEF I was aware that it's still possible to get 68 ATK before the Master Brains, but at the time I decided this was okay (for the reason Blondbeard states and because you have to get most of the way round the First Floor to do it, which is a tough enough challenge to be worthy of some reward. I'm going to reconsider this as well as everything else when I get round to looking at everything in preparation for the next update.

1:1S1W becomes accessible when you have opened the door at the north end of 1:1N3E. There is no story-related reason for this. It's just a way of giving the player a secret room that only becomes accessible at that point without having to build a way across the pit to accommodate it. It's also a way of giving a secret room that you have to look a bit harder for, because you might already have been in 1S and seen the lack of secret wall there. Personally, I have no problem with hidden-scripting secrets like this; they ensure that even the best optimisers can still have things they overlooked to look out for on replaying the hold. I'm planning to include more secrets like this later on in the hold as well. However, if it's widely considered unfair then I won't use this style of secret.

The secret wall in 1:1N1E appears when you enter the room via the secret wall in 1N2E. It's a crude but effective way of creating a one-way secret passage; it had to be one-way because the goods in 1N2E would be too easily accessible if you could simply grab them from the other secret room.

I'm definitely going to make the Guard Trainer fight harder in the next update, so it will be impressive to get the Bronze Shield without ever getting the Wooden Shield, but it will probably still possible for the best players. The player has to decide whether keeping the blue key is worth more than the HP lost by not getting the shield.

Finally, don't ever apologise for breaking the hold! Firstly I'm not sure you have, and secondly if it is broken it helps a lot to find out about it now rather than later.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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I'm wondering if that's the answer. The final battle of the guard training is already quite hard. I guss you might want to fix those soulless killing each other, though. Unless you think that is fun

I always wondered if the woden shield was worth it. If you take it directly you have to take about 60 hits. And lose a blue key. If you go in for saving Edward early, and using his stairs it probably isn't worth it.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 12-02-2008 07:38 AM]

Nuntar
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Partial update: I've given the Guard Trainer more HP and radically decreased the amount of HP available in the tar rooms. Also changed some of the non-HP rewards, with a net result of one fewer ATK gem available.

Next I'm going to have another go over the north wing of Level 3 and see if I feel the amount of HP available there is appropriate. After that, it's back up to the Fourth Floor, and you can say hello to the Hobgoblins!

EDIT: also changed two ATK gems to DEF on the First Floor. This makes it even harder to get 68 ATK before the Master Brains, but it is still possible and I think this is appropriate. Also added a DEF gem to 2:7S2E to make the choice in this room a bit better balanced.

EDIT: and I've checked that I, with my good but nowhere near Blondbeard-standard optimising, can still beat the Royal Guard fairly comfortably and without exploring everything on the levels so far. Stats: 81 ATK, 57 DEF. Did not yet buy the DEF gem or use the Elixir. I could also have beaten the Todal, but as the boss skip isn't functional yet I didn't bother.

EDIT: changed two DEF gems to ATK on Level 4, changed one ATK to DEF, and added a DEF gem in a new secret room. The overall effect is to give players a way of making the Royal Guard fight easier that doesn't impact on the pre-Master Brains section of the hold. I also think it's more appropriate, in view of the difficulty of reaching the gems in 6S1E and 7S2W and the comparative ease of reaching the one in 7S1E, to have them this way round. The new secret room also has a goblin that you have to step past rather than fight, something I learnt from Tendry's Tale after I'd built Level 4 and so haven't really used much. (I mean, I knew about the possibility of avoiding blows, but Tendry's Tale taught me that a goblin you can avoid completely can be a neat puzzle element and not just wasted space.)

I promise this will be the last small update before the next big one.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-02-2008 06:44 PM]

Blondbeard
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Is it worth it to replay the whole thing due to this update? Or is it better to wait for the next big one?

Nuntar
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Yeah, don't bother replaying the whole thing. Maybe I shouldn't even have posted, but there was such a lot that needed changing that I wanted to make things easier for myself by doing it in stages. Also helps make sure I don't forget to tell you about any of the important changes. And finally it means that just in case you're feeling bored this week and really have nothing better to do than replay my hold, it will be more useful to me if you do it on the latest version.

No promises about how soon the next update will be done, but hopefully it won't be too long....

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
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I just realised that approximately five hundred tar babies are available to be killed once you get them down to zero damage. This is a huge problem -- a sudden influx of 15,000 greckles would swamp the economy And my earlier suggestion of a purchase requiring the player to kill the tar babies before the zero-damage point doesn't look so feasible any more. Firstly because I'd have to provide at least 15,000 HP to make it possible. Secondly because with that much HP available, what could the purchase possibly be, to make it that essential? It would turn a well-balanced hold (I think it is so far, and my testers seem to agree) based around optimising a succession of choices into a hold based around one big choice. Thirdly, I simply don't want to make the tar wing essential for completing the game. Helpful, yes -- even entering it when babies are still doing 425 damage can be a reasonable decision, to get those ATK power-ups to make it easier to progress through other areas, and completing the wing and beating the Tar Mother will eventually grant access to an entire wing that the rush-through player will miss completely.

Fortunately, I already have a solution [...] or did. See below.

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-03-2008 02:58 AM]

TFMurphy
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You may find the Global Variable "_MonsterGRMult" to be an easier solution to the problem. Although of course, should you change it one room, you should make sure to reset it in all adjacent ones.

Nuntar
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Yes, that's what I'll have to do. I just realised the "Build" command doesn't allow you to build tar yet

EDIT: Fixed, but I won't upload a new version just for this change. I've made the variable _MonsterGRMult (and _MonsterREPMult) vary depending on the player's stats; it didn't seem right to deny rewards to the player entering these rooms for the first time, since it would feel a bit weird that one particular enemy never gave you any REP or greckles.

Since the details of the scripting are hidden from the player, I don't mind giving the specifics of what I've done for my testers, in case it helps you to know:


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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-03-2008 12:18 PM]

Nuntar
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Updated at last!!!

Let's see, it's been so long that it's hard to remember exactly what's changed. I did go through the north wing of the Third Floor and slightly reduce the HP available, but not anything like as much as I did in the tar rooms.

I've added a new secret room with a rattlesnake.... somewhere. Enjoy searching. When you find it, it looks as if there's no reward for killing it, but appearances can be deceptive.

Most importantly, I've added the central wing of the Fourth Floor. You can meet the Goblin Emperor (but you can't fight him yet) and search for the Portable Orb (but sadly, although there are places you can use it profitably, the main place where you're meant to use it isn't built yet).

Fourth Floor: 1W is a placeholder room. Make sure you save before entering this room, so that you can carry on from before you entered it next update.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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For some very strange reason all my saves was gone when I imported the new version. I have now played through it all, and my stats when Edward defeted the swordsman was: 1752/157/110/9/4/0. (I picked up pretty much everything I could). Is it correct that the Edward stairs still ends the hold?

Nuntar
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Yes -- as you've no doubt noticed, the hold is built like an actual castle, with every staircase taking you to the identical room on the floor below or above. So the stairs behind the Swordsman (3:8N2W) will go to 2:8N2W when I've built the north wing of Floor Two, and the other Edward stairs, 3:1E, will go up to 5:1E when I start building the Fifth Floor.

(Ah yes, there's one thing I did forget to mention. The boss skip is now partially functional, in that you can go up to 4:1E and back down and the boss (and blue door) will be gone. Of course the full functionality, what makes the skip worthwhile, won't come until I have put some stuff on the Fifth Floor.)

Knowing your final stats isn't really that helpful, because obviously, I can't build the next level as though the player will do as well as you -- that would make the hold too difficult for me to complete! What would be useful -- I know this is more time-consuming, but you could give the data just by looking back through your save list -- would be, first, your stats (including GR) after the Royal Guard fight; second, a rough guide to what order you tackled the remaining areas in after that; third, your stats after the other boss fights as well as at the end.

Still, at least you aren't managing to finish with thousands of HP now, so things are improving

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
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Sure thing. I'm glad that you ask for what you want to know. Makes it easier to coment.

Please note that I leave as much as possible for later, though. I have many keys I could pick up relativly cheaply.

After Royal Guard: 818/78/53/(GR=39)/2/0/0).

My path to the roayl guard was basically: Get the powerups and keys that costs two green keys at level 1, get Atk 38, get green key to kill the mud babie in the hidden room to obtain 2 atk 2 def.

Get secret green key, get blue key, kill the master brains, get each attack gem easily atianable, enter the north wing of level 2, get the shield with an atk of 57, so the mad eyes don't cost too much lives, do the wing = get everything. Get the attack gem of level 3, and enter the daniel fight with an atk of 70, in order to not lose many lives, buy 3 Atk from the merchant in level 3, get atk 78, kill the royal guard.

Once the guard was killed I directly obtained the short sword, killed some golems and got some def gems, entered the "easy" training fights, went down to get two Atk gems from level 4 (I somehow missed there was a third to get). I got the atk gems in lvl3 1N5E and 1N6E. Then I got 3 atk from the training guy in the training area. Since I had more than atk 104 (Atk 115) I decided to try the souless, and get some more atk. My goal was to get atk 127, to make the tar area easy. I struggled through the area, not gaining lives, not loosing live (more or less), and obtained two atk gems (one in 8N1W and one in 6N2W). I got two atk gems in the tar area (1S8E, and 2S6E). I now had Atk 127. I got the remaining atk gem in 2N8E, and killed the trainer (I now had atk 133). I picked up the lives, the key and the atk gem, and went and got the shield. I beat the goblin king, and got the remaining atk gem of north wing. I then beat an ogre, to get a +4 atk gem, and then I finaly realised that I ought to pay a visit to level 4 7S2W. After that I basically collected everything I could. As you can see I have left out most of the life collecting, but I hope it is helpful anyway.

If you wonder anything, just ask.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

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OK, just a few questions. First, I calculate that getting the sword (two Soulless and two tar babies) should have cost you around 1800 HP; was that right? If so, was there enough life still available from the areas before the Royal Guard, or did you have to take some form areas only available after killing him as well? Did you use the Elixir (then or at any other point?)

I notice you're still talking about going "down" to the Fourth Floor -- it should be up, as it's the highest floor I've built so far. To go down to it you'd have to reach it from the Fifth Floor.

What do you mean, you "got 3 ATK from the training guy in the training area"? If my calculations are right, at that stage you had ATK 112, and the trainer should be doing around 8000 damage. How can you get the ATK gem he guards without killing him?

What was your GR at the end?

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50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 12-20-2008 02:45 AM]