Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

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It took a while but I *finally* defeated Daniel. It was difficult... but then I'm kindof a masochist, so I like it .

Problem is... Having defeated him doesn't necessatily mean I can continue. Here are my stats:

81 HP
65 ATT
39 DEF
1/0/0 Keys

I have one question. What's with the dude in the screenshot? Walking on the sword doesn't hurt me, he takes 61 health and gives 100 greckles. Sounds like a good deal at the moment...

Also, the solution to the neather's orb puzzle is awesome .

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-09-2008 10:11 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Hmm, your 39 DEF suggests you got the shield? Perhaps you should consider leaving it for later

I've just created a save where I've got past the first four bosses with the following stats:

603 HP (you get 600 after beating the Brains, so you can work out how close that was)
ATK 72
DEF 30
Keys 2/0/0

I'll be using this save in testing the next area and in particular the next boss, as it represents doing the first levels non-optimally but still getting past them. But naturally, knowing other people's stats is very helpful as it gives me much more of a feel for how hard an area is than just doing one particular run-through.

Please tell me, what exactly was so "awesome" about that orb puzzle?

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
Hmm, your 39 DEF suggests you got the shield? Perhaps you should consider leaving it for later

Hearing that is... quite depressing. I'll have to redo a *lot*.

I've just created a save where I've got past the first four bosses with the following stats:

603 HP (you get 600 after beating the Brains, so you can work out how close that was)
ATK 72
DEF 30
Keys 2/0/0

I'll be using this save in testing the next area and in particular the next boss, as it represents doing the first levels non-optimally but still getting past them. But naturally, knowing other people's stats is very helpful as it gives me much more of a feel for how hard an area is than just doing one particular run-through.

Do you mind posting that? I actually doubt I'll be using it, but I'd like to know that I have the possibility.

Please tell me, what exactly was so "awesome" about that orb puzzle?

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

So what I did is I killed one Mad Eye in level 1 in order to get a key, which I then used to get the larger stash that can be fuond in the level two secret room. I doubt that can keep me going but it's my best chance at the moment. (I was able to kill that Mad Eye because I had found 200 HP somewhere else, I don't remember where).

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Oh good... I was just thinking that maybe I've made it too hard to get started on the Level 1 central wing and Level 4.

You don't make it clear whether you've done Level 3 yet -- if not, then your HP should be enough to get you started, and you can choose the large HP rather than gems in 8S2E. If you have done Level 3, then getting enough HP to walk past the first goblin allows you to look for more HP on Level 4, although you will need keys. I think I need to add more rooms to Level 1 and make it easier to find keys....

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

I did do level 3. I think it would have been quite difficult to get such a high attack otherwise.

There's a level 4 *shock* ! The stairs up from level two go to level three, actually a room thereof with only two stairs, and the stairs up end the hold. so no level 4 for me .

By the way...

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-10-2008 05:27 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I've uploaded a version with a couple extra rooms on Level 1, giving you some more keys that you can get (though you'll need HP -- it's always a trade-off!)

Unfortunately I don't have time to do more right now -- Monday is my night for drawing class and dancing -- but as I say, hopefully more content will be coming soon. We're not anywhere near the end of the hold yet, so any stairs that end the hold will go somewhere else eventually.

I assure you that Level 4 can be reached on the version you are playing.



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50th Skywatcher

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

OK, the fact that I haven't posted in a while does not mean that I stopped testing this hold. It just means that I haven't found anything interesting to say,mainly because I couldn't advance any more. Also, don't expect any new feedback from me for about a week, becaue school came back en force; I have a huge amount of things that need to be done. Sorry about that.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

It's not a problem at all; on the contrary, I hope you can be patient while waiting for me to have time to continue building it!

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
It's not a problem at all; on the contrary, I hope you can be patient while waiting for me to have time to continue building it!

Such an awesome hold? No problem . It's worth the time.

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-12-2008 07:05 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I've made some slight changes to Levels 1 and 4, notably:

* Added a couple of extra secret rooms to help you if you get stuck.
* Seeing what I can do with light and darkness in the new wing of Level 1, now that I've discovered the ceiling darkness has variable settings.
* Added more gems in the new wing of Level 1, as the x1 multiplier meant they weren't really worth getting.
* I couldn't add any more gems to Level 4, as that would only widen the gap between players who've optimised well up to this point and players who haven't, but I have made one of the existing gems easier to get to.
* Improved some of the goblin speech.

Don't get too excited yet, though -- you won't really be able to progress with the hold until I've built the new wing of Level 3, which I intend to do next. I just wanted to make sure Levels 1 and 4 were exactly right before moving on.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Can I ask a question? The way Nobard's Hold is set up at the moment, the music changes the first time you enter a new level or area. Does this get too annoying when you've been hearing the same music for a while? Should I make it so each area's music recurs whenever you return to that area?

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50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Updated with central wing of Level 3!

This wing is different from the others. There are no monsters except for the boss fight, and no power-ups except for a couple you can buy in the Indoor Market, and the Elixir the Master Healer gives you. That's because this is the first big boss -- you can find him quite early in the game, and then you have to go explore other areas to prepare yourself for beating him. Blondbeard will probably already have optimised enough to beat him straight off but don't worry if he seems a bit too tough -- there's still one wing of monsters and power-ups that you can reach before fighting him left to add.

Don't enter the Library (1W). There's nothing there yet, but I'm later going to put researchers who give you hints about puzzles later in the hold in exchange for greckles. Of course I can't put the researchers in yet as I don't know what their hints will need to be so just leave this room alone for now.

The secret room 4S1E is only accessible if you have a blue key when entering Level 3 for the first time. If you're continuing a save from previous versions you've probably already prevented yourself entering this room, but don't worry -- there's no penalty at all for leaving it out except that you miss a bit of plot, which you can catch up on by viewing the room in the editor.

The staircase in 1E currently ends the hold, but when I've built more levels it will be a mechanism for skipping the boss on this level. As for the boss fight itself, I was going to use a Swordsman, but then I decided a reversed Swordsman (680 HP and 100 ATK) would be more appropriate, as then the player is better rewarded for optimisation, as higher stats can make this fight a lot easier. Of course the goal is that the best optimisers will be able to beat the Royal Guard without taking the Elixir....

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

I haven't restarted playing this hold but I *really* suggest that you give the hints for free, not for greckles. People who don't want them will still not get them and those who want them will not resort to loading an earlier savegame.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

I'll consider that when I get that far

Sorry to upset the accounts, but I've just uploaded a new, slightly changed version -- I decided to make the beginning of the central wing of Level 1 a bit easier as a suitable reward for beating Daniel, so I've replaced some mad eyes with mud babies, which shouldn't be doing much damage to you at that point, so you can get the power-ups a bit more easily.

Please answer my question above about the music. I'll go with majority opinion, even if it's one vote to none!

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-20-2008 08:47 PM]

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

It doesn't affect me much, but I suggest you make the music change every time you enter an area.

Edit: This is what I get for not backing up... I hadn't yet reached the central wing of level 1, but I somehow did lose my savegames .

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-20-2008 09:13 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

OK, I've fixed the music and made further small adjustments to Level 1.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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The only way to reach level 3 4S2E is to go get that blue key, but as far as I can tell you don't get any profit from doing so. Just some guy who dissapears to speak to the king.

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

As I explained, that's correct. It's a small reward for a player who manages to get a blue key before ascending to Level 3 -- a deliberately small reward because I don't want to encourage or discourage players doing parts of the hold in a particular order (except for the reason of optimisation).

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
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Dammit I can't get this to work.

Blondbeard pointed out earlier that it was possible to get 68 ATK before beating the Master Brains. I didn't think much about this at the time, but I've realised that this is in fact a big problem, since it trivialises the fight, and the 600 HP you get afterwards will make the rest of the hold too easy. So I tried taking some ATK out and changing some ATK gems to DEF (just a small number) but then making progress on Level 1 becomes impossible

Any suggestions? (And no, Blondbeard, "I like holds to be extremely difficult right from the outset" is not a valid suggestion. )

EDIT: I've made an attempt at fixing it by adding a new secret room to Level 2 and removing the second yellow door blocking entry to Level 4. I wonder if that will be enough?

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-20-2008 11:51 PM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
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MISSION COMPLETED!!!

HP 1344
ATK 77
DEF 47
GR 142
Expected damage from Royal Guard 1325

...and this is without taking the elixir. I had to do a lot of backtracking between the different levels, but that's all part of the fun of it! Now I think I've finally got Levels 1 to 4 gauged right, apart from a few small things I've noticed I want to change.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

New version attached. Here's a complete list of what's changed, so anyone in the middle of playing can decide if they feel they need to go back to the beginning or not:

* Level 4 entrance set so text only appears on first entry
* Mud baby moved in Level 3: 8S so that, if coming from the east, the player has the choice of killing the brain first if they have a yellow key. (I'd noticed I was always approaching this room from the west, suggesting that the east approach was too expensive.)
* Yellow and red doors switched round in Level 4: 7S. I'd overlooked that opening a door while next to a goblin costs you one extra hit.
* Large potion guarded by rock golem in Level 2: 7S1E changed to medium potion and yellow key. The potion was just a freebie once you got ATK up to around 77; now there's some room for decision-making if you end up needing a yellow key while it still costs more HP than the medium potion gains.

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50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Just to prove you wrong: You can still beat the brans after reaching 68 ATK, but it doesn't matter, since you have to get the gem from the other duoble brain configuration in order to do so (the one where the blue key is). I suppose this was really your goal?

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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About Edward:

About the hold: I love it! The difficulty seems quite right, and you have soo many choises. This time I got the keys and gems behind the two green doors on the first level directly., but that is a bit of a challange, and I'm not even sure if it's optimal or not I have completed all the bits now, except for the goblin king, which I can't complete.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-21-2008 09:58 AM]

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Blondbeard wrote:
I suppose this was really your goal?

Yes, that's right. Or at least, that was the compromise solution I eventually decided on after realising that taking away too much ATK made Level 2 much harder than I wanted it to be.

Would you mind telling me your final stats, including greckles, and state which merchants you've already bought from? As I mentioned, I'm contemplating adding one more area that's available before the Royal Guard fight, and I want to make sure the Goblin King remains impossible until after beating him.

Very glad you like the hold so much! Have you considered nominating it for this year's awards?



____________________________
50th Skywatcher

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-21-2008 12:21 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

Nuntar wrote:
Very glad you like the hold so much! Have you considered nominating it for this year's awards?

Sure I have, but it isn't finished yet, and I really liked Dischorrans Washed Ashore. A tip: Always let the merchants tell the player how much something costs.

And finally: Some stats. After I defeated the brans (and took the potion) I had 992 lives, 71 ATK, 39 DEF, 176 GR, 8 yellow keys, and nothing more. I have bought three yellow keys.

After Daniel: 992 lives, 71 ATK, 39 DEF, 176 GR, 8 yellow keys, and nothing more.

After the royal guard I had HP 50, ATK 81, DEF 49, 218 GR and 8 yellow keys. I have now bought a green key from a merchant on level 2, and an attack gem for 500 GR. After this I proceeded to beat Todal (a bit wrong order, as it turns out).

To beat Todal I had to get some lives, and I found them in . I beat him with 269 HP to spare, and 52 DEF. Naturally Edwards proposal seemed a bit too late, since I had already defeted the guard. Also it seemed too costly when I looked in the editor. Considering the things you gain from beating (defense gem, large potion and a yellow key) the guard it's actually worth the lives it costs (almost). We'll see what Edward has to offer to motivate me to go down and fight some goblins for an extra blue key (since I've already used one in order to get the shield).

Nuntar
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 4596
Registered: 02-20-2007
IP: Logged

Thank you! That will be very helpful in designing the next area.

I've fixed the merchants' scripting so they'll tell you how much things cost even when you don't yet have enough, and I fixed Edward's scripting so he won't offer to let you skip a boss you've already beaten

No other changes yet -- I'm happy with the levels so far as they are.

____________________________
50th Skywatcher

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
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Me too But I need better equipment before taking on the goblins.

Dex Stewart
Level: Smiter
Rank Points: 355
Registered: 01-19-2007
IP: Logged

I think I have some bad news for you...
My ATT was at 70 and I only collected two ATT upgrades in level 3 (5S 1E and 8S 2E). Now I explored like half a level and collected some stuff (including one more +3 ATT gem) without even a scratch.
If you ask me though, I would keep it like this. It's one of those cases where you reward the optimisers without punishing the normal players.

EDIT: Actually... I may be wrong. I entered the fourth floor with these stats:
2239 HP
76 ATT
36 DEF
383 GR
1/0/0/0 Keys

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[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-21-2008 05:34 PM]

Blondbeard
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1486
Registered: 03-31-2005
IP: Logged

I don't think you have the latest version, Dex Stewart.