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reyll3
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Yeah...Its way too hard :x
Can't get past the first part of level 2.
I always don't have enough health...

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[Last edited by reyll3 at 11-05-2008 03:42 PM]
11-05-2008 at 03:42 PM
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Nuntar
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Clearly there's a large difference of opinion here and it's difficult to cater for all tastes! :lol

I don't regret the last round of changes -- it was definitely necessary to not give the second sword so soon, and Level 1 has some more interesting choices now that you don't get 21 ATK immediately. The blue key on Level 3 was meant to be difficult to reach -- I want it to me difficult enough that most players won't get it on their first pass through the level and will have to come back for it, perhaps after getting the next sword. However, I agree that the hold now needs some easing changes to compensate.

I won't list everything I've fiddled with, but the main points are:

*Blue key at the start of Level 2 replaced by a yellow, and blue door gone. Hence you only need to kill one spider to start Level 2, and there's an extra yellow key if you return to it later when you have less HP loss vs. spiders.

*Removed Neather at entrance to the central wing of Level 2, so now you can get the DEF power-up immediately after killing Grey Jade, and of course reach the goodies in the Neather rooms, which are rather lucrative if you can manage the orb and trapdoor puzzles.

*Added an ATK power-up (+3) to Third Floor: 8S2W to make there actually be some gain for going round the loop.

*Removed some rock golems, and made some treasures guarded by golems more easily accessible. No point in have quite that much stuff completely impossible to reach now and ludicrously easy later. I want to calibrate matters, if I can, so that the player goes through a stage when they can kill golems but not easily, and then they might need to go back to Levels 2 and 3 for those power-ups.

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11-05-2008 at 04:56 PM
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Blondbeard
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Sounds good to me. And you also have to take a look at some absurdly costly powerups. I'll make a list of them. Two yellow doors for a +2 defense gem is too much. As a comparisson: Highscorewise two keys are worth 20 points. The defense gem is worth 6 points. The same aplies to the defensegem at level 1. And that one is also guarded by a spider.

Gren key and antlion for defense gem and 150 lives is also expensive. Especially since you have to battle some eyes to get there. A yellow key for 150 lives should be avoided if possible.

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11-05-2008 at 05:18 PM
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Nuntar
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(Currently playtesting: reached Master Brains with 891 HP, expected damage 1146, some rooms on Third Floor not yet explored so might be able to beat the Brains without returning to Second Floor.)

Good point about a couple of the power-ups ... if you give me a list and tell me which room each one you're referring to is in, I'll have another look at all of them. Some of them are deliberately expensive, though, because you have to decide whether it's worth decreasing your potential high score to give you an ATK, DEF or HP boost that might be necessary to get past a boss. That DEF gem on Level 1 saves you 1HP per battle from the beginning of the game, which adds up to quite a lot. As you can see if you read the whole topic, in my first attempt at a hold, Kunzite Tower, I gave away DEF too freely and didn't realise until I started playtesting just how powerful it was.

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11-05-2008 at 05:42 PM
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reyll3
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Still...you could add some more HP behind greckle doors...

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11-05-2008 at 05:58 PM
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Nuntar
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Reyll, are you saying you've played the latest version and still find it too hard? I've just beaten the Master Brains and there's still some HP behind greckle doors, on Levels 1 and 3, that I never took.

EDIT: for my own future reference:

Master Brains defeated BEFORE defeating Grey Jade
HP: 51
ATK: 50
DEF: 18
Keys: 3/1/0
Score: 355

EDIT 2: got shield, cleared Level 2 including the maze, reached Daniel with 534 HP, expected damage 838. This fight clearly needs recalibrating -- although having beaten the Brains, I could get some power-ups from Level 4 before returning here, were it not for the slight snag that I haven't designed it yet. But I wanted Daniel to be (barely) beatable if you take the route of beating Grey Jade and the rest of Level 2 before ascending to Level 3, and it doesn't look like he is.

EDIT 3: just remembered Level 3: 7S2E, which I can now reach with enough ATK to one-shot the first three enemies and get an easy further +3 to ATK. If I'd done this before the maze I might be able to beat Daniel. Regardless of whether this is true or not, he needs to be easier.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-05-2008 06:41 PM]
11-05-2008 at 06:01 PM
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Nuntar
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OK, new version uploaded. Daniel has been made easier and there's a new secret room in Level 2 with some HP. Hopefully this really is now the very final version of the existing areas before I go on to build some new areas. At any rate I'm happy with the difficulty of everything apart from the Daniel fight, and I'm just going to playtest that now.

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11-05-2008 at 06:54 PM
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Blondbeard
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Meh! I don't really care for this "easier making". I was able to beat Daniel just fine in your hardest version.

That being said you do as you please, of course. I liked the first (easiest?) version as well, after all.

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11-05-2008 at 07:13 PM
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Nuntar
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Yes, but I want a progression from easy to difficult, with rewards later on if the player optimises now :)

Just tested out beating Daniel before the Master Brains, and it works fine -- Daniel and his minions would have done over 1000 damage when I first reached the room, so I had to do about half of Level 3 to get the necessary power-ups, which is more or less what I wanted. I can now beat Daniel and get the shield without defeating the Brains, but I can't defeat them afterwards -- which isn't a problem, as defeating Daniel will grant access to the central wing of Level 1.

I'm now absolutely happy with the difficulty and content of the areas built so far, so I'm going to leave everything I've made as it is and move on :)

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11-05-2008 at 07:51 PM
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Blondbeard
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:D

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11-05-2008 at 07:52 PM
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Nuntar
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New version's up! :) I've added the central wing of the First Floor... this bit has some nastier enemies, including rock golems, for you to beat if you're strong enough for lots of juicy greckles to cash in for juicy power-ups on the Fourth Floor... when I build it. Since it's not yet built, instead you can have some plot advancement and a very hard boss. He's not actually meant to be beatable just yet, but knowing you, I wouldn't be surprised!

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11-06-2008 at 12:06 AM
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Blondbeard
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Yay! I managed to reach attack 68 before beating the double brains. Here are my stats:

Brains: 523 (510/74/37/3/0/0)

Daniel: 554 (743/77/37/4/0/0)

Todal: 616 (277/80/40/6/0/1)

What's the point of beating Todal? He doesn't block any way. He doesen't carry any treasure. He just costs a lot of lives to beat. Oh, and please keep in mind that you have a 1* multiplier on the later rooms of level 1. Thus a +1 gem there is only worth as much as one third of a +3 gem on level 3. The same goes for lives, obviously.

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11-06-2008 at 09:06 AM
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Nuntar
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Well, this is a bit of a spoiler, but as you've been so helpful in testing this for me, I'll answer your question if you're sure you want to look:

Click here to view the secret text


And yes, I'm well aware of the x1 multiplier; that's why nearly all the potions in the new area are large ones (still, did I put in too many?) -- and giving away ATK too freely would make the rock golems too easy, as most players won't be able to reach 77 ATK by this point. The idea was that the player would use this area together with the next area I'm going to build, Level 4, to slowly build up their character by farming for greckles on Level 1 where the gates are cheaper and cashing them in on Level 4 where the power-ups are stronger.

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11-06-2008 at 09:34 AM
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Blondbeard
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Click here to view the secret text


Edit: And in order to get my stats you have to chose gems every time you get the choise.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-06-2008 09:46 AM]
11-06-2008 at 09:40 AM
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Nuntar
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Do you think I did put too many large potions in the new area?

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11-06-2008 at 09:46 AM
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Blondbeard
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No. Because you need them. They are just like a regular potion will be on level 4.

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11-06-2008 at 10:03 AM
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Nuntar
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I'm aware of that... just wondered if I'd put in too many, considering you managed to beat the Todal with so much HP left over. I have decided to reduce the potions, but only slightly. It's not worth putting up a new version, so I'll leave that until after I've built another area.

Also:
quote:
Edit: And in order to get my stats you have to chose gems every time you get the choise.

Indeed. It's an example of what I'll refer to as Chaco's Rule: rewarding the player for good choices rather than punishing them for bad ones. Getting your ATK up to 77 makes the rock golems much less of a hassle.

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11-06-2008 at 11:27 AM
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Nuntar
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New version's up :) I've now built the main part of Level 4, South Wing, though I might come back and add a couple more rooms on the fringes later.

The boss in this area should be impossible to beat without better weaponry. If you manage to beat him, something is seriously wrong with the design and will cause things to go seriously wrong with the plot sequence, so do let me know.

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11-06-2008 at 04:21 PM
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Blondbeard
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Can I proceed from my last saved game? I beat Todal, and released the prisoner, although I did it in the wrong order ;)

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11-06-2008 at 05:12 PM
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Nuntar
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Of course you can -- the order won't have made a difference to anything later in the hold :)

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11-06-2008 at 06:05 PM
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Blondbeard
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Sorry! Goblin king beaten, although it cost me 2300 lives (I had no keys left after the fight, and almost no lives)

Score 621 (73/91/45/0/0/1). My sugestion: Add more goblins. If he where surounded by, say eight goblins instead of two, there's no way I could have beaten him. I think. What if I haden't beaten Todal... Anyway... It will be so costly to beat him that you will probably wait for a better wepon.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-07-2008 08:38 AM]
11-07-2008 at 08:36 AM
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Nuntar
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No, you don't understand. Making him hard enough that players will "probably wait for a different weapon" doesn't interest me; he has to be completely impossible to beat before beating the Swordsman in the next Level 3 area, otherwise the plot is broken. (Once you beat the Swordsman you have access to more areas, so you probably could get enough power-ups to take on the Goblin King without actually getting a new sword, but that doesn't concern me as it won't cause the plot any problems. It's just a very silly thing to do.)

I've got an idea for how to alter the area, but can I ask you (now and every time you give a progress report) to include how many Greckles you currently have? I need to know particularly whether I'm gauging the prices the various merchants charge appropriately.

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11-07-2008 at 02:31 PM
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Nuntar
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New version's up :) I've moved things around on the Fourth Floor, adding two new rooms, moving two of the gems to the new rooms so they're much harder to get, and adding another couple of guards at the entrance to the throne room. I don't think you'll be able to beat the Goblin King now! :D

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11-07-2008 at 04:01 PM
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Blondbeard
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Ok. From where should I play?

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11-07-2008 at 04:10 PM
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Blondbeard
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Okay. Not much to do in the goblin area now. Everything costs too darn much :( But I suppose that might change as you proceed with later levels. Did you know you can get unlimeted access to yellow keys for greckles? Is this how it's supposed to work? But you can only do it all at once, since the guy dissappears once you leave the room.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-07-2008 04:49 PM]
11-07-2008 at 04:47 PM
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Nuntar
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Yes, that's the idea. I don't know how well balanced it is, but the intention was:

*With the wooden sword, it's worth entering if you're in need of HP for the Swordsman fight, going past some goblins rather than fighting them, to get the large potions.

*With the short sword (i.e. if you manage to leave the area till after the Swordsman fight) you can kill most of the goblins and get the +4 ATK and DEF gems, but you still have to be careful. Still, beating the Swordsman will open up more areas where you can replenish your HP.

*If you manage to find Goblin-Biter, of course, this area becomes a pushover. That makes Goblin-Biter really worth getting... if you can.

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11-07-2008 at 04:57 PM
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That intention seems to work. What about the key guy? Seems a bit buggy as he works now.

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[Last edited by Blondbeard at 11-07-2008 05:00 PM]
11-07-2008 at 04:59 PM
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Nuntar
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quote:
Blondbeard wrote:
Did you know you can get unlimeted access to yellow keys for greckles? Is this how it's supposed to work? But you can only do it all at once, since the guy dissappears once you leave the room.

Whoops! I see I used "End on room exit" instead of simply "End". I've fixed it now, but I won't bother uploading a new version just for that.

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11-07-2008 at 05:03 PM
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Dex Stewart
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OK, so this is a beautiful hold. I like it a lot and the difficulty level is perfect in my opinion. I defeated Stanley and Jade Grey and am now going through the Neather's puzzles. One minor thing I found: if the player moves around the mirrors in 2nd floor 1S and leaves the room, the mirrors are not going to be reset, which means that the player has to load a game. I suggest placing some arrows and a door at the entrance, so the player can only leave the room by restarting or by solving the puzzle.

EDIT: Also, use scripting to force the player to disarm. The puzzle is very easy if you keep your sword.

[Last edited by Dex Stewart at 11-09-2008 12:09 PM]
11-09-2008 at 12:07 PM
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Nuntar
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Thank you -- both for playing it and for pointing out those problems :thumbsup

I've uploaded a new version with the Sokoban puzzle and the key merchant both fixed. I'll try to get some more actual content done soon....

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11-09-2008 at 01:36 PM
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