cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 219
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File: Cheeses Hodgepodge.hold (43.9 KB)
Downloaded 71 times.
License: Public Domain

Being frustrated with the fact that the player roles of Water Skippers, Seeps, Fegundos, Aumtlichs, and Wubbas don't work how I thought they would, I really have no way to finish my Adventure hold how I want to finish it.

That's a shame, because I came up with like 25 interesting rooms in the 4 years I've been touching it. That's like one room every two months! I don't really want those to go to waste, because at this point I don't think I will be able to finish Adventure. Well at least until that player role thing is changed, if that's even a possibility.

Instead of letting those rooms rot in Architecture limbo, I stripped the storyline and story levels, and just consolidated the puzzle rooms into a single hold.

Theme? There is no theme. The hold consists of rooms where I did some fun scripting thing, dancing roaches, or puzzles where you switch between Beethro and the Wraithwing.


And I promise. This hold is approximately 400% better than my first n00btacular abomination when I was like 12.


I tested the hold and then decided to make it look slightly more fancy, so if the aesthetics broke anything, let me know, because I tend to do that. Also let me know if you find any Unintended Solutions or how I can make that roach timer tighter in 1S2W.

Or any improvements for that matter.

Hope y'all enjoy.


Edit: I'm gonna submit this. As soon as I figure out why the "Submit Hold" button doesn't do anything when I click it.

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[Last edited by cheese obsessive at 10-10-2008 09:33 PM]

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
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Conquered! It's too late to write long comments now, but will try to post them tomorrow. I can also post my demo set, if you'd like to see what I did.

My favorite part was the mazy set of rooms where I had to switch back and forth between Beethro and a wraithwing player role. The roach dances looked really cool, but turned out to require a lot of trial and error to actually solve.

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[Last edited by CuriousShyRabbit at 09-16-2008 09:50 PM]

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3171
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IP: Logged

Comments on specific rooms
1E - As I was saying in chat, I was confused when I could block roaches with my sword without dying. In reviewing my demo, I see that was probably because of blocked roaches blocking other roaches who then stepped on me. This leads to a bit of trial and error in solving rooms like this. I like the names of the roach dances, though.
2E - The confused tarstuff is funny!
1N2E - I already told you about the two unintended solutions for this room and how to fix them. Dancing around orthosquares with roaches is a fine puzzle.
1S2E - The first time I tried this room, I got completely stuck, with one mimic blocked on all sides by roaches who didn't want to move. Then I started over and it worked. I wasn't quite sure what I did differently.
1S1E - Tricky aumtlich manipulation! It's all about making them turn. Thanks for the checkpoints!
1S - This is another room about dancing, but Beethro dancing this time, as I'm pretty sure there is only one way he can get through each orthosquare chamber.
1N1W - I remember you talked about this room in chat a long time ago. I solved it the slow way, waiting for all the walls to be built before the last roach died.
1S1W - I liked this puzzle, where I had to figure out who should do each task.
1S2W - I tried for a while to kill all the mothers before the roach got out, but that was "clearly impossible". So I sacrificed one mirror to stop the roach completely while I cleaned up the room. Then with some sword blocking, I was able to lock the roach into the second half of its passage with the remaining two mirrors. I'm not sure my solution was entirely intended, as the pressure plate that opens the yellow door inside the first half of the roach's passage was not important.
1S3W - Switching back and forth between Beethro and the wraithwing to accomplish the various tasks in this room was fun, but would be more fun if I didn't have to start completely over again each time I made a mistake. Checkpoint please!
2W - Very nice twist on an old classic. It was cool setting things up with Beethro so the wraithwing could survive in the different passages.
1N2W - After dropping the trapdoors and killing golems as Beethro, my wraithwing made two passes through the central area. For the second pass, I did a lot of right clicking to get the movement order of the 4 roaches such that they would space themselves out.
2N1W - Cool mazy room. I could only enter it as the wraithwing, but I could only solve it as Beethro.
2N3W - A very easy wraithwing room.
2N2W - This rooms took me ages of starting over and over again when I made a mistake with the roach horde at the end. It needs a checkpoint that the wraithwing can use.
1N3W - Another pretty easy wraithwing room. The wraithwing characters are still there when I return to the room after I conquer it. Not sure if that's intended.
1N4W - I lured one of the roaches from the top into the snake's area. The tunnels were definitely helpful for that. But I didn't understand the point of all the switching between Beethro and the wraithwing.
4W - Solving this kind of room as a wraithwing is a lot easier than solving it as Beethro. Without a power token, the wraithwing can safely block roaches with its body.
3N1W - This room is pretty easy as a wraithwing too, for the same reason. But then the arrows forced me to pass through the roach area a second time as Beethro (after solving 3N2W) and that confused me. I killed two roaches and still got through?? (Don't have a demo for that, sorry, and I did it after initially conquering the room.)
3N - This room is trivial as a wraithwing. Just fly to the conquer token.
4N - This room is also trivial as a wraithwing, as I can avoid flying over the spot that triggers the roach queens.
3N2W - The roach queens on force arrows forced me to do this room as Beethro. It was quite a tough horde management problem. I didn't use the tunnels when leaving, but that doesn't seem too important.
2N - Either I'm getting better at predicting roach dances, or this room was a little easier than the other roach dance rooms. I didn't need to use trial and error here.
3W - I didn't really need to kill the three guards on the way out, but um... too bad for them!

cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 219
Registered: 10-10-2004
IP: Logged

CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
Comments on specific rooms
1E - As I was saying in chat, I was confused when I could block roaches with my sword without dying. In reviewing my demo, I see that was probably because of blocked roaches blocking other roaches who then stepped on me. This leads to a bit of trial and error in solving rooms like this. I like the names of the roach dances, though.

>>I'll put in a note telling people not to kill the roaches, but they can still kill you. It made more sense when there was a story.

2E - The confused tarstuff is funny!

>>First thing I ever scripted in JtRH.

1N2E - I already told you about the two unintended solutions for this room and how to fix them. Dancing around orthosquares with roaches is a fine puzzle.

>>I noticed BoyBlue did something like that in his hold 3 years after I came up with it.

1S2E - The first time I tried this room, I got completely stuck, with one mimic blocked on all sides by roaches who didn't want to move. Then I started over and it worked. I wasn't quite sure what I did differently.

This is the only "dancing roaches" room that I find to be slightly frustrating, should I remove a few mimics, or is it OK to just leave it? Every hold needs one of those rooms, ya know?

1S1E - Tricky aumtlich manipulation! It's all about making them turn. Thanks for the checkpoints!

>>You're welcome! I remember checkpoints half of the time.

1S - This is another room about dancing, but Beethro dancing this time, as I'm pretty sure there is only one way he can get through each orthosquare chamber.

>>As far as I know, there is only one way to get through each chamber (You did it the same way I did it), but some sick freak will find a different way someday.

1N1W - I remember you talked about this room in chat a long time ago. I solved it the slow way, waiting for all the walls to be built before the last roach died.

See, I can come up with original puzzles!

1S1W - I liked this puzzle, where I had to figure out who should do each task.

Hmm, I don't know what you mean by that...as far as I can see, there is only one task and one player role...wrong room maybe?

1S2W - I tried for a while to kill all the mothers before the roach got out, but that was "clearly impossible". So I sacrificed one mirror to stop the roach completely while I cleaned up the room. Then with some sword blocking, I was able to lock the roach into the second half of its passage with the remaining two mirrors. I'm not sure my solution was entirely intended, as the pressure plate that opens the yellow door inside the first half of the roach's passage was not important.

That's unintended...I don't want the mirrors to be able to COMPLETELY block the roach, I just want the mirror to lock the roach to the long and windy path. But I'm not quite sure how to fix this...I'll see if I can come up with a creative solution.

The intended solution IS the "clearly impossible" option...That yellow door and pressure plate are there for a reason.

If you're stumped...

1S3W - Switching back and forth between Beethro and the wraithwing to accomplish the various tasks in this room was fun, but would be more fun if I didn't have to start completely over again each time I made a mistake. Checkpoint please!

Checkpoint added!

2W - Very nice twist on an old classic. It was cool setting things up with Beethro so the wraithwing could survive in the different passages.

This room was kind of a tutorial for how to kill enemies with wraithwings...loosely based on that room I think you're thinking it's based on.

1N2W - After dropping the trapdoors and killing golems as Beethro, my wraithwing made two passes through the central area. For the second pass, I did a lot of right clicking to get the movement order of the 4 roaches such that they would space themselves out.

That's sort of the intended solution...to use the golems to space out the roaches...just not how you did it. My intended solution was to place the golems on the bottom row like

so that the roaches would fall into the gaps between the golems so they stay spaced out. I added another door to make sure you don't place the golems where you did. Also, you went around with the wraithwing twice, even though I intended it to be done once. I added another door making it impossible to go twice.

2N1W - Cool mazy room. I could only enter it as the wraithwing, but I could only solve it as Beethro.

I came up with that little Beethro-block much like I come up with all of my DROD ideas...out of nowhere on very rare occasions.

2N3W - A very easy wraithwing room.

Nother tutorial kind of room.

2N2W - This rooms took me ages of starting over and over again when I made a mistake with the roach horde at the end. It needs a checkpoint that the wraithwing can use.

Added!

1N3W - Another pretty easy wraithwing room. The wraithwing characters are still there when I return to the room after I conquer it. Not sure if that's intended.

Nah, that's unintended. I fixed the scripting.

1N4W - I lured one of the roaches from the top into the snake's area. The tunnels were definitely helpful for that. But I didn't understand the point of all the switching between Beethro and the wraithwing.

That's very unintended.

The object of the room is to


I'm not really sure how to fix that one yet. I'll see what I can do.

4W - Solving this kind of room as a wraithwing is a lot easier than solving it as Beethro. Without a power token, the wraithwing can safely block roaches with its body.

Haha wellll it was SUPPOSED to be solved with Beethro but I forgot to add scripts to switch the player role. It's a bit harder with a sword. (There used to be a disarm token in the middle. If it's too hard to beat, let me know if I should put it back.)

3N1W - This room is pretty easy as a wraithwing too, for the same reason. But then the arrows forced me to pass through the roach area a second time as Beethro (after solving 3N2W) and that confused me. I killed two roaches and still got through?? (Don't have a demo for that, sorry, and I did it after initially conquering the room.)

The script is set to close the door when a monster is stabbed...so yes, if you're the wraithwing you can kill them all. This was also a Beethro room.

3N - This room is trivial as a wraithwing. Just fly to the conquer token.

Beethro power activated!

4N - This room is also trivial as a wraithwing, as I can avoid flying over the spot that triggers the roach queens.

Fixed too. This was the second thing I ever scripted in JtRH.

3N2W - The roach queens on force arrows forced me to do this room as Beethro. It was quite a tough horde management problem. I didn't use the tunnels when leaving, but that doesn't seem too important.

You can make this room 4674 times easier by using some other things in the room.

2N - Either I'm getting better at predicting roach dances, or this room was a little easier than the other roach dance rooms. I didn't need to use trial and error here.

This is an easier one, I just think it looks cool.

3W - I didn't really need to kill the three guards on the way out, but um... too bad for them!

Whoops, fixed.

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[Last edited by cheese obsessive at 09-17-2008 01:20 AM]

cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 219
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Hopefully everything is fixed and ready to go now. See first post for the hold.

CuriousShyRabbit
Level: Smitemaster
Rank Points: 3171
Registered: 10-14-2006
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I think I've caught up with this one.

It took me a while, as I had a tough time with 1S2W, but I believe I've done it properly now. Whew!

Other rooms that changed...
1N4W - As we discussed in chat, I used essentially the same unintended solution as before.
2N1W - My tools showed me that you changed this room, but my old demo still works, which is good.
3W - As we discussed in chat, this room now has the problem that killing the brain doesn't open the green door.
3N2W - The force arrow forced be to use the tunnel to exit, so I had to replay it. This room needs a checkpoint or two.
1N2W - You forced me to do it your way this time.
4W - I was able to solve this room without the tunnel, but thanks a lot anyway.
1N2E - As we discussed in chat, you need to make that orb open the roach doors. For some reason, moving the orb made it close them.
3N - I've solved this properly as Beethro.
4N - I've solved this properly as Beethro.
3N1W - As we discussed in chat, I can kill all the roaches before stepping on the conquer token. That opens the door that killing the roaches closed.
2N2W - Thanks for the checkpoint. I'm not sure why my old demo broke... was it the new bushes? Anyway, I've replayed it without problems.
2N3W - I'm not sure what changed in this room, but my old demo is still okay.
1N3W - This room seems the same as before also. When I return after conquering it, the wraithwings are still there.

cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 219
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IP: Logged

CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
I think I've caught up with this one.

It took me a while, as I had a tough time with 1S2W, but I believe I've done it properly now. Whew!

Other rooms that changed...
1N4W - As we discussed in chat, I used essentially the same unintended solution as before.
2N1W - My tools showed me that you changed this room, but my old demo still works, which is good.
3W - As we discussed in chat, this room now has the problem that killing the brain doesn't open the green door.
3N2W - The force arrow forced be to use the tunnel to exit, so I had to replay it. This room needs a checkpoint or two.
1N2W - You forced me to do it your way this time.
4W - I was able to solve this room without the tunnel, but thanks a lot anyway.
1N2E - As we discussed in chat, you need to make that orb open the roach doors. For some reason, moving the orb made it close them.
3N - I've solved this properly as Beethro.
4N - I've solved this properly as Beethro.
3N1W - As we discussed in chat, I can kill all the roaches before stepping on the conquer token. That opens the door that killing the roaches closed.
2N2W - Thanks for the checkpoint. I'm not sure why my old demo broke... was it the new bushes? Anyway, I've replayed it without problems.
2N3W - I'm not sure what changed in this room, but my old demo is still okay.
1N3W - This room seems the same as before also. When I return after conquering it, the wraithwings are still there.

I think I fixed everything. I think if no one finds any problems with this version I can submit this. See first post for hold.

People besides CSR are welcome to leave comments too, ya know.

CuriousShyRabbit
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File: CH The Hodgepodge 1N2E Victory.demo (905 bytes)
Downloaded 47 times.
License: Public Domain

Alright, I've played through the new version.

1N4W - I finally did it your way. It's cool that switching back to the wraithwing is like taking an invisibility potion.
3N2W - Thanks a lot for the checkpoints.
3W - This room works correctly now.
1W - Tahnan noticed something that I totally missed. If you go back to the Entrance, you're a wraithwing. You need a Beethro changer in here.
Entrance - Not sure what changed in here.
3N1W - This took me a lot of trial and error, but I finally did it properly with Beethro and without killing any roaches.
1N3W - Now the wraithwings are gone after I conquer the room.
1N2E - You're going to hate me... I've found another US (attached). I think you should not let the mimic move at all. Surround it from the start with the 8 orbs, with the southern one being the only orb it should touch.

cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 219
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CuriousShyRabbit wrote:
Alright, I've played through the new version.

1N4W - I finally did it your way. It's cool that switching back to the wraithwing is like taking an invisibility potion.
3N2W - Thanks a lot for the checkpoints.
3W - This room works correctly now.
1W - Tahnan noticed something that I totally missed. If you go back to the Entrance, you're a wraithwing. You need a Beethro changer in here.
Entrance - Not sure what changed in here.
3N1W - This took me a lot of trial and error, but I finally did it properly with Beethro and without killing any roaches.
1N3W - Now the wraithwings are gone after I conquer the room.
1N2E - You're going to hate me... I've found another US (attached). I think you should not let the mimic move at all. Surround it from the start with the 8 orbs, with the southern one being the only orb it should touch.

Is that the third US for 1N2E you've found? I'm hoping it's the last. Or else someone is going to have to throw rocks at me.

I'm hoping this is the last time I need to update this board. If no one finds anymore glaring bugs I'm-a gonna send my baby off to the HAs.

Hold attached in first post.

CuriousShyRabbit
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I can't find any more problems with this hold.

Doesn't mean there aren't any, though. It would be smart to have another set of eyes looking at this hold. Is there anyone else out there who can give it a quick run-through?

Tahnan
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As CSR noted, I've been playing through it. I don't have a lot yet, since I had to go back and replay some things after I discovered I couldn't return west.

I will note that

* in the intro text, "eachother" should be two words

* In 1E, it would be nice if (a) there were some Val Ulrich-like counter to tell you how many moves you had left, or else instead of giving the number you just said "you'll need to keep moving east each turn", and (b) we were in fact told not to kill roaches.

(Idle thought re (a): what if you had to place a SW-facing mimic to open the door, and then march him east across hot tiles with east-facing arrows to strike an orb at the east end that would open a door to let you continue?)

* I found 1S2E to rely mostly on guesswork and undo; I think it would make a better secret/optional room than required room.

EDIT:

* 1S3W: CSR tells me that...



This is, we gather, unintended.

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[Last edited by Tahnan at 09-30-2008 06:29 AM]

cheese obsessive
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Tahnan wrote:
As CSR noted, I've been playing through it. I don't have a lot yet, since I had to go back and replay some things after I discovered I couldn't return west.

I will note that

* in the intro text, "eachother" should be two words

* In 1E, it would be nice if (a) there were some Val Ulrich-like counter to tell you how many moves you had left, or else instead of giving the number you just said "you'll need to keep moving east each turn", and (b) we were in fact told not to kill roaches.

(Idle thought re (a): what if you had to place a SW-facing mimic to open the door, and then march him east across hot tiles with east-facing arrows to strike an orb at the east end that would open a door to let you continue?)

* I found 1S2E to rely mostly on guesswork and undo; I think it would make a better secret/optional room than required room.

EDIT:

* 1S3W: CSR tells me that...

Click here to view the secret text

×I apparently should have needed to clear out the SE area of the eyes with the wraithwing. As it happens, I cleared them out with Beethro in the following manner:

Click here to view the secret text

×Stand NE of the orb, sword facing SE. Bump into the orb. Move SE onto the tunnel, stabbing the eye behind it, and move E through the tunnel. Then you can come back in, sword E, and stab the wakened eyes one at a time (luring the rest back into the NE area as needed).

This is, we gather, unintended.

K, fixed all that.

I couldn't fit a mimic timer in 1E without changing the room layout (which would also require re-scripting everything), so I hopefully made it more clear in the scrolls what needs to be done.

Update attached to first post. Seriously, I think that's the last one this time.

BoyBlue
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2W - If you enter from the south and leave to the north without clearing the room, you're stuck.

1N3W - Seems like the NPC wraithwings should be speaking, not the player.

4N - The scripts replay if you re-enter the room after clearing it. (Not really a problem.)

2N - The scroll says not to mess up the pattern, but there's no penalty if you do. (Probably intentional, but it's unlike 3N, where the scroll says the same thing, but there is a penalty.)

3N1W - It's kind of annoying that I apparently have to beat this room twice (the second time to return from 3N2W).

1S2W - I still don't know how this room is supposed to be done, but another (difficult) way to do it involves moving the mirror near the mud up one tile, trapping the roach in the box thus created, and later releasing it.

cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

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BoyBlue wrote:
2W - If you enter from the south and leave to the north without clearing the room, you're stuck.

Fixed by adding another green door.

1N3W - Seems like the NPC wraithwings should be speaking, not the player.

Minor issue, but fixed anyways.

4N - The scripts replay if you re-enter the room after clearing it. (Not really a problem.)

...and now they don't!

2N - The scroll says not to mess up the pattern, but there's no penalty if you do. (Probably intentional, but it's unlike 3N, where the scroll says the same thing, but there is a penalty.)

Turns out my script only works on the edges of the vortex. I'm working on a script that fixes this. I haven't figured it out yet. I'm no good at scripting this complicated stuff, so if any scripting prodigies out there wanna give me a nudge in the right direction I'd be grateful.

3N1W - It's kind of annoying that I apparently have to beat this room twice (the second time to return from 3N2W).

Added more green door.

1S2W - I still don't know how this room is supposed to be done, but another (difficult) way to do it involves moving the mirror near the mud up one tile, trapping the roach in the box thus created, and later releasing it.

Well, it's quite impressive that you managed to trap the roach like that. I can't actually figure out how you did that...Do you have a demo?

If it doesn't make the room trivial then I might just leave that possibility in.

The intended solution:


A few hints:

BoyBlue
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Demo for 1S2W attached.

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[Last edited by BoyBlue at 10-05-2008 03:48 PM]

cheese obsessive
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I am just going to leave that US for 1S2W in, just because I am impressed by it. It's also 238 moves behind my solution, so I'm not too worried about it upsetting any high scores.

I also have no idea how to fix the scripting in 2N (Been trying all day...), and like you said, it's really not a big deal anyways.




So I found a few other rooms I didn't want to completely let die and threw those together into a post-master level.

1E is the only one that really needs testing I think. Just let me know if you find any ridiculously trivial solution. I myself only found one solution that works, but I'm willing to bet that there are others.

See first post for update.

BoyBlue
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The Hodgepodge 1S1E - The first chamber is now pretty trivial, because of the new entry position.

The Hodgepodge 2S1E - I can just fly directly to the conquer token. And the scroll talks about my sword, though I don't have one.

More Hodgepodge 1N - I doubt you'll be able to get this room past the hold administrators.

cheese obsessive
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BoyBlue wrote:
The Hodgepodge 1S1E - The first chamber is now pretty trivial, because of the new entry position.

The Hodgepodge 2S1E - I can just fly directly to the conquer token. And the scroll talks about my sword, though I don't have one.

More Hodgepodge 1N - I doubt you'll be able to get this room past the hold administrators.

Fixed the Hodgepodge rooms, and made 1N in More Hodgepodge unrequired. I'll post an update once a few more people look at it.

Tahnan
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1N3W: it looks like the player, not the NPC wraithwings, are saying "Look, Tom's back!"

cheese obsessive
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Tahnan wrote:
1N3W: it looks like the player, not the NPC wraithwings, are saying "Look, Tom's back!"

Hmm, I thought I fixed that in this update, but I guess not. It's definitely fixed in the version I didn't upload yet.



Speaking of which, I'll upload that version right now. See first post.

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[Last edited by cheese obsessive at 10-04-2008 09:52 PM]

BoyBlue
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File: CH The Hodgepodge 1S Victory.demo (1 KB)
Downloaded 44 times.
License: Public Domain

1S can be solved as a wraithwing; see attachment.

The main issue with More Hodgepodge 1N is that you have embedded copyrighted graphics in your hold file, which is okay if you have permission, but I'm skeptical that permission would be given for this purpose.

I think every other significant issue that I know of has been fixed.

cheese obsessive
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BoyBlue wrote:
1S can be solved as a wraithwing; see attachment.

The main issue with More Hodgepodge 1N is that you have embedded copyrighted graphics in your hold file, which is okay if you have permission, but I'm skeptical that permission would be given for this purpose.

I think every other significant issue that I know of has been fixed.

You're a borderline superhero for finding US's like that. Room should only work as Beethro now.

I've also emailed Erik about the graphics thing. Worst case scenario is I'll just remove the room.

cheese obsessive
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K, I'll upload the final version, which I'll submit to the HA's as soon as I hear back from Erik about my cheap trick room. Haven't heard back from him in a few days though.

CuriousShyRabbit
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Cheese, if you need permission to use Caravel media, mrimer is the person to ask now. For quicker results, you might forward your email to him.

cheese obsessive
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Registered: 10-10-2004
IP: Logged

Alrighty, I just got a response from Mike, and he said my cheap trick was fine to do. So I guess that means the hold is ready to submit.


Thanks CSR, Tahnan, and BoyBlue for testing this thing for me.

Edit: Err. Why is the "submit hold" button not working for me? What obvious thing did I miss this time?

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[Last edited by cheese obsessive at 10-10-2008 06:57 PM]

talund
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 05-17-2005
IP: Logged

I've been running through this and can't determine how to get to 2S 1E. I get that I have to become a wraithwing but can't see any place that I can do that and return to this room.

cheese obsessive
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 219
Registered: 10-10-2004
IP: Logged

talund wrote:
I've been running through this and can't determine how to get to 2S 1E. I get that I have to become a wraithwing but can't see any place that I can do that and return to this room.

I'm assuming you've deduced that you have to travel through more than one room as the wraithwing to get there. So try to follow a path backwards from the pit in 1S1E that only a wraithwing can travel.

More explicitly, the path starts in

talund
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 95
Registered: 05-17-2005
IP: Logged

thanks for the hint. I hadn't noticed the hidden path before so kept finding a dead end as I tried to work back to it. I did not find 2S, 1E to be that frustrating and including as you did makes mastering the hold more of an accomplishment while not a requirement for conquering. I felt that various rooms were just the right level of challenge.