John259
Level: Delver
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It might be useful if somewhere very obvious near the start of DROD:RPG there was a pointer to a list of the important differences between it and classic DROD, for example:

* Monsters don't move.
* You don't have to kill every monster to finish each level.
* Doors are often opened by possessing keys instead of hitting orbs or standing on pressure plates.
* You must frequently save manually, otherwise you'll only be able to restore back to the start of each level (big pain, this one!).
* Any more I've omitted.

John

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2006 A DROD Odyssey: "Open the pod bay doors Halph" - "Not possible!"

Someone Else
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This seems like the sort of thing that people have to discover. I mean, it's not too hard to find out roaches don't move, and doors being openable by keys you discover in the first level. And frequently saving... I didn't do that when I went through (I actually didn't notice you could save manually until the second half). Most people will have to play through a given part a few times anyways in order to beat a level.

zwetschenwasser
Level: Master Delver

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Having to save manually is the most annoying thing in the game that I can think of. Would checkpoints really flood the restore screen that much if you knew what you were doing?

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Currently working on GaTEB and KDD (never finished the silly thing).

mrimer
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zwetschenwasser wrote:
Having to save manually is the most annoying thing in the game that I can think of. Would checkpoints really flood the restore screen that much if you knew what you were doing?

First of all, no one *has* to save manually if they don't want to. In fact, I'm surprised by the negative reaction to being given the power to save anywhere in the game, as this has been requested numerous times for DROD, with the reason that checkpoints "just aren't enough". Here are further reasons for my surprise:

1. Checkpoints were originally added to DROD to make completing a room less frustrating when you're dying over and over, and that paradigm doesn't really apply here, except possibly on a per-level scale. That being the case, how are Autosaves less useful than the hold architect placing a checkpoint somewhere?

2. I don't see how pressing F2 is worse than looking around the level to find a checkpoint to step on. In fact, I'd expect it to be more convenient.

3. Checkpoints can still be implemented as NPCs that look like checkpoints and Autosave when you step on them. You haven't lost any power in your save system at all.

Still, I'd like to keep hearing people's opinions on this.

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 09-14-2008 10:17 PM]

zex20913
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I think that if we'd known the F2 key was an option, that'd be grand. It's probably in the manual, but who reads that?

Basically, I'd read some people saying that F5 was a quicksave. So I tried it and was all "Ooh! Neat!" Also--if we could have more quicksave slots, that'd be great.

Then, I tried hitting F4. I forget if it did anything, but I stopped hitting Fs after that.

Until I remembered that they were there, and I hit the F3 key, and up came the load screen! I was like "This is awesome! I wish there was a save button."

A few hours later, I found F2. I felt like an idiot.

In short, I don't hit those buttons unless I know what they do, and I don't know what they do unless I read that they do something, and I don't read things.

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mrimer
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That's honest and useful feedback. Thanks!

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Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Briareos
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Well, the biggest difference to Classic DROD in my opinion is...

*drumroll*

You can't blaze through any of the earlier games in an extended Sunday afternoon.

I climb down some stairs with 50 HP left after scraping together all upgrades and potions I could find for the battle that decimated me that much thinking "Oh shiii...", and what happens?

"Secrets found: 75%

You conquered Tendry's Tale!"

Well, it's nice to find out I made it through alive but maybe it should have been a weee bit longer...

np: Tetine - Slum Dunk (Soul Jazz Records Singles 2006-2007 (Disc 2))

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Briareos
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mrimer wrote:
Still, I'd like to keep hearing people's opinions on this.

Are saves kept around indefinitely? Cause that's going to be overwhelming after a while.

Also, how about a "Delete" button? I've just noticed that hitting the delete key works, but it's not exactly discoverable...

np: Soul 223 - In Search Of Slowly (Soul Jazz Records Singles 2006-2007 (Disc 2))

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Fafnir
Level: Smiter

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I didn't know about the quicksave button either - thanks! Here's my take on the situation.

mrimer wrote:
First of all, no one *has* to save manually if they don't want to. In fact, I'm surprised by the negative reaction to being given the power to save anywhere in the game, as this has been requested numerous times for DROD, with the reason that checkpoints "just aren't enough".

The ability to save manually is a very good thing - it's the lack of a decent autosave that irritates me.

1. Checkpoints were originally added to DROD to make completing a room less frustrating when you're dying over and over, and that paradigm doesn't really apply here, except possibly on a per-level scale. That being the case, how are Autosaves less useful than the hold architect placing a checkpoint somewhere?

They're far less frequent. If you're playing quite slowly, they can be an hour or two apart. And since the puzzles are on a multi-room scale, by the time you realise you've made a mistake it's always too late to correct it without restoring - the undo button sees a lot less use than in DROD. Also, if you're trying to optimise as you go, the lack of perfect information means you need to explore a little to see what's out there, which requires a manual save.

2. I don't see how pressing F2 is worse than looking around the level to find a checkpoint to step on. In fact, I'd expect it to be more convenient.

In DROD, if you want to load a save file, you have to click the room on the Restore screen. Even if you have to go back a few rooms, which is a rare occurrence and mostly happens when trying to master a hold, it's pretty easy to find the save you want. In DROD RPG, going back a few rooms (or even fights) is an extremely common occurrence and it's hard to tell which state the game's in from the information on the restore screen. So you need to either dig through saves to find the one you want or name them carefully - either of which takes more effort than DROD's system.

3. Checkpoints can still be implemented as NPCs that look like checkpoints and Autosave when you step on them. You haven't lost any power in your save system at all.

No power has been lost from the architect's perspective, but from the player's perspective if an architect doesn't include checkpoints then it's back to manual saving.

I'm not sure how you'd fix a lot of these points - I think some of them might be innate to the genre - but more frequent autosaves would certainly mitigate them.

And Briareos: I think you may have missed something after the final boss fight...

____________________________
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Absolute stupidity
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Briareos
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Fafnir wrote:
And Briareos: I think you may have missed something after the final boss fight...

Yeah, I know - but I'll have to replay the last level or two to finish with more hitpoints, and I'll have to find a weapon to fight who I think you mean... (EDIT: Done.)

But still, the restore screen tells me I've been to 85% of all rooms and have 75% of all secrets, so there can't be that much more content...

np: Sutekh - Kill The Monkey (Soul Jazz Records Singles 2006-2007 (Disc 2))

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 09-15-2008 01:42 AM]

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

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Briareos wrote:
You can't blaze through any of the earlier games in an extended Sunday afternoon.

Wow, that was fast play! We didn't have anyone go through it so fast, even people experienced with TotS.

In any event, yeah -- the game was made to fit the swifter flow of a Metroidvania -- and not to be a 50+ hour grueling TCB progression (well, probably 25 hours for you )

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

---

[Last edited by mrimer at 09-15-2008 03:49 AM]

NiroZ
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I think it is the fact that quite often you forget to manually save, whereas a checkpoint reminds you to save.

Briareos
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mrimer wrote:

Briareos wrote:
You can't blaze through any of the earlier games in an extended Sunday afternoon.

Wow, that was fast play! We didn't have anyone go through it so fast, even people experienced with TotS.

Okay, it was more like from eleven in the morning until eleven in the evening with the usual interruptions (breakfast, lunch, dinner, coffee, bathroom breaks, Caravel forum visits, etc. ...)

But then again I have never played TotS...

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"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Fafnir
Level: Smiter

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I blazed through pretty quickly as well - maybe 18 hours total with very little ToTS experience. (I followed a walkthrough, but that was enough to work out most of the tricks.) The second, optimised playthrough is taking considerably longer...

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Stupidity kills.
Absolute stupidity
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Tim
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One of the big difference with DROD is that the hidden stuff in this game is about half of the game, so if you complete the main parts and say the game is small, then I agree with you.

Also, in this games, you're supposed to restart whole levels instead of rooms, but somehow it's hard to comprehend. Restarting takes more time but give you better stats.

Oh, and the hidden levels are worth spending the extra time on (unlike what Briareos claimed).

Another difference is the mouse-click and the Ctrl+ way of moving around. I'm sure that if Mike removed those things the game will take longer to be completed, but do you really want that?

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Briareos
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Tim wrote:
Oh, and the hidden levels are worth spending the extra time on (unlike what Briareos claimed).

I never claimed the hidden levels weren't worth spending extra time - why do you put words I never said in my mouth?

Another difference is the mouse-click and the Ctrl+ way of moving around. I'm sure that if Mike removed those things the game will take longer to be completed, but do you really want that?

Mouse movement was the first thing I disabled in the options after patching, actually...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

Tim
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Briareos wrote:
I never claimed the hidden levels weren't worth spending extra time - why do you put words I never said in my mouth?

So what do you mean with this quote?

But still, the restore screen tells me I've been to 85% of all rooms and have 75% of all secrets, so there can't be that much more content...

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zex20913
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It seems that Briareos is referring more to the fact that the amount of content of game left is less than he's played already. Not to the actual contents of the rooms that he missed.

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Briareos
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Tim wrote:

Briareos wrote:
I never claimed the hidden levels weren't worth spending extra time - why do you put words I never said in my mouth?

So what do you mean with this quote?

But still, the restore screen tells me I've been to 85% of all rooms and have 75% of all secrets, so there can't be that much more content...

I mean that I guess I've found most stuff already (as evidenced by the 85% of all rooms figure), but it still is beyond me how you could assume that I'd consider the remaining 15% "not worth spending extra time" - I went to bed at 2:30 AM yesterday (or rather today?) because of DROD RPG and I'm at work now, so I hope I'm allowed to *not* play DROD RPG at this very moment...

____________________________
"I'm not anti-anything, I'm anti-everything, it fits better." - Sole
R.I.P. Robert Feldhoff (1962-2009)

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[Last edited by Briareos at 09-15-2008 01:56 PM]

Tim
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Okay, I guess I'm phrasing it badly either.

(kind of spoiler)


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bflatjeff
Level: Delver
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Briareos wrote:
Also, how about a "Delete" button? I've just noticed that hitting the delete key works, but it's not exactly discoverable...

Seconded. I was reading the Bugs group and these threads to see if anyone had mentioned it. I'm getting cluttered up and didn't even think to use the keyboard Delete key. This should be implemented.

BbJ

____________________________
"Stupid, stupid roach creatures!"
- Beethro Bonekin