NiroZ
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So wait. There's no scopes in Fallout 3?

Or is it like at the start of STALKER, where you start off with incredibly inaccurate weapons.

Is this what reviewers refer to when they say that traditional shooting is kind of awkward?

Based on what you've said, I think I'd rather start with Fallout 3, as Mass Effect sounds like Half Life 2 with infinite ammo. In other words, a cakewalk.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 11-01-2008 07:10 AM]

Banjooie
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Wait.

> Thread about awesome RPGs

> ctrl + f, earthbound

> nothing found


what

Beef Row
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NiroZ wrote:
So wait. There's no scopes in Fallout 3?

Or is it like at the start of STALKER, where you start off with incredibly inaccurate weapons.

Is this what reviewers refer to when they say that traditional shooting is kind of awkward?

Based on what you've said, I think I'd rather start with Fallout 3, as Mass Effect sounds like Half Life 2 with infinite ammo. In other words, a cakewalk.

Sounds like its similar to how STALKER works. You do start with relatively poor weapons (a BB gun and baseball bat, initially), but the real catch is that in traditional shooting BOTH player skill and character skill come into play, so if your character is horrible with a gun, you can line up a perfect headshot and miss, repeatedly. Since your character's chance to hit falls off rapidly with a target's distance, this is more noticable the further away the enemy is.

This falloff occurs with the targetting system as well, not just in traditional shooting, but there's nothing stopping you from developing your firearms skills very rapidly (at the cost of not building up your other skills, of course.) Note that the small guns skill covers ALL traditional guns, big guns are things like rocket launchers, flamethrowers, miniguns and worse (shoulder fired mini-nuke). This means you can rapidly build expertise in a wide arsenal all at once, you don't have to focus on just rifles for instance.

There are a few scoped weapons, and if you aren't scoped you'll always have a crosshair, and can aim to zoom in a little more.

EDIT: As far as Mass Effect being like Half-Life 2, it really isn't. Its setting is more like Star Trek or Babylon 5, with faster than light space travel, exploration, and a (not-always entirely perfect) alliance of various alien races facing a great threat. I guess thats the diffrence I was trying to pick out earlier, you're saving a strong civilization, not trying to survive in an intolerable one or in civilization's ruins. And it's 3rd person with a cover system (and in Unreal engine) so it's more like Gears of War for gameplay. It's not unchallenging, just streamlined so running around finding spare ammo isn't a concern.

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[Last edited by Beef Row at 11-01-2008 12:05 PM]

eb0ny
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Nuntar wrote:
Now -- I know what an RPG is, but what does the "J" in JRPG stand for?

"Japanese". It includes all RPGs by Square Enix and games that copy Square Enix RPGs' mechanics.

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[Last edited by eb0ny at 11-01-2008 02:47 PM]

Banjooie
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There's...it's hard to really describe, but pick five japanese RPGs, and, say, any five (are there even five) non-Japanese RPGs, and you'll see a marked difference.

Snacko
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In the beginning of Fallout 3 you'll be getting some of the best weapons, but they'll be in terrible condition. I think when they say that the traditional shooting is awkward, they mean that you'll still occasionally miss even if your aim is spot on due to a low perception or guns rank.

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NiroZ
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And VATS is always accurate?

slimm tom
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NiroZ wrote:
And VATS is always accurate?

No, but IMO better than manual aiming on long range, especially with a high weapon skill.

Sillyman
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Banjooie wrote:
Wait.

> Thread about awesome RPGs

> ctrl + f, earthbound

> nothing found


what

Earthbound: It's awesome. I cannot even begin to describe it's awesomeness. It is the most random professional RPG that is ever likely to appear. Hilarity ensues.

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Nillo
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In retrospect, I have to say that I've played better RPGs. It was a little too random for its own good, particularly in the combat system and monster attacks (some of them do nothing and some of them kill you). It also had quite a bit of inventory management which I find annoying. But it had a wonderful sense of humor and it's charming in its own way. I still smile a little when I think of the first item I picked up (which is in my signature, by the way) - a present with a bomb in it.

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Snacko
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I've recently got into the Star Ocean series, really a must play: incredibly addictive skill systems, tons of endings, deep item forging and deeply tactical yet incredibly frantic battles. I haven't played Till the End of Time yet, but I will right after I beat Second Story.

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Banjooie
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Nillo wrote:
In retrospect, I have to say that I've played better RPGs. It was a little too random for its own good, particularly in the combat system and monster attacks (some of them do nothing and some of them kill you).

Yeah, lemme clarify here for you.

A lot of monsters have attacks wherein they basically /do not attack/. This is astonishingly helpful because some of them have very, very mean attacks.

Basically, it's the equivalent of occasionally they're guaranteed to miss.

As for instakill attacks--a lot of monsters in the game blow up. Your HP gradually goes down, so it's in your benefit to move as quickly as possible when you've taken damage, especially near the end of a battle.

NiroZ
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I've figured out why people like VATS so much. Basically it pauses the game, allowing you to fire off shots without fear of retaliation.

Nillo
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Banjooie wrote:
As for instakill attacks--a lot of monsters in the game blow up. Your HP gradually goes down, so it's in your benefit to move as quickly as possible when you've taken damage, especially near the end of a battle.

True, but I never liked this mechanic anyway. I mean, *boom*, you get exploded, and then gradually start dying unless you finish the battle before your health reaches zero? It doesn't make any sense.

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“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

Snacko
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That makes perfect sense, you're bleeding, losing strength and perhaps about to lost consciousness, take out the enemy before you go down and they won't be able to kill you.

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Nillo
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But if you're bleeding profusely and about to fall unconscious, how would defeating all the enemies help the situation? They already inflicted the wounds on you.

Meh, I'll concede this point now because it is silly and unimportant. It probably makes sense in some far-fetched way, but I still dislike the mechanic.

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“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”

Snacko
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You won't be finished by the enemy.

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Banjooie
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I assumed it was along the lines of 'you manage to pull together because the enemy stops punching you in the face.'

Then again I refused to drag realism into a game wherein I was punching a tree and it exploded.

mrimer
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I accept this general mechanic as "once you're no longer getting punched in the face, you can take a moment to bandage your wounds to stop the blood loss."

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reyll3
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Try Lufia 2- Rise of the Sinistrals. you all will love it.
(especially the Random 99 floor dungeon(Yes all the floors are Random)

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Beef Row
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reyll3 wrote:
Try Lufia 2- Rise of the Sinistrals. you all will love it.
(especially the Random 99 floor dungeon(Yes all the floors are Random)

Wait, so basically you're saying Lufia 2 has a built in roguelike mode? I may have to check this series out.

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reyll3
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Beef Row wrote:

reyll3 wrote:
Try Lufia 2- Rise of the Sinistrals. you all will love it.
(especially the Random 99 floor dungeon(Yes all the floors are Random)

Wait, so basically you're saying Lufia 2 has a built in roguelike mode? I may have to check this series out.

Lufia 2 has a random 99 floor dungeon which you enter without something (only 5 elixers) and on each floor created are chests and monsters that belong to that floor.

Lufia 3 (GBC) ONLY has random floor dungeons.

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Monkey
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reyll3 wrote:

Beef Row wrote:

reyll3 wrote:
Try Lufia 2- Rise of the Sinistrals. you all will love it.
(especially the Random 99 floor dungeon(Yes all the floors are Random)

Wait, so basically you're saying Lufia 2 has a built in roguelike mode? I may have to check this series out.

Lufia 2 has a random 99 floor dungeon which you enter without something (only 5 elixers) and on each floor created are chests and monsters that belong to that floor.

So, roguelike mode.

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jdyer
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Incidentally, Wizardry 4 is a completely grindless RPG. You play the bad guy from Wizardry 1 trying to get out of the dungeon you were imprisoned into. You can summon a set of monsters at a "summoning square", but they will never level up; the only thing to do is make it to the next square where you can summon the next ability level of monsters.

It also may be one of the most difficult RPGs ever made. This is likely why the format never caught on, but I'd love to see another RPG with the same schtick.

I'm surprised Persona 3 is being mentioned to someone who hates grinding. The intervening parts are fun, but I defy anyone who thinks that game isn't grindtastic.

I highly recommend the Geneforge games for those who aren't fans of grinding. No random encounters, and if you play "normally" (don't go out of your way to grab more XP) you can make it all the way through.

I think the problem with standard grindy RPGs (Dragon Quest et. al.) is the only *interesting* fights are the boss ones. I did beat Dragon Quest 7 and the parts which I found fascinating were the boss fights where I had to come up with creative strategies (for example, I found the charm skills useless except for one boss fight where they were essential for survival). I'd like the RPG equivalent of a "boss rush" where all the boring intermediate fights are cut out.

I *have* had an interesting tactical time with grind sessions when they become a resource game. For example, in Phantasy Star 1 there's an early dungeon where you get warped down to a lower level and have to fight your way out. I started to feel the sort of desperation that comes out of a survival horror game, hacking my way from fight to fight by the skin of my teeth.

Unfortunately, every subsequent dungeon was normal and boring. (Can you tell I think the game is overrated?)

I also remember having an interesting time with the harder parts of Bard's Tale (1 & 2 -- haven't got that far in 3) where often fights would last only as long as it would take for me to run away.

I guess the issue is one of an early mechanic that made some sense and became outdated. For example, in Mario it used to make sense to have lives, but in the later games I really question why they exist at all. In the case of RPGs the difficulty used to be higher, so the resource drain made even random combat interesting. Now when you can get through a section by mashing the A button, people who were never around in the early days don't understand why anyone would like the mechanic.

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[Last edited by jdyer at 11-23-2008 09:06 PM]

Snacko
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I don't think the problem is the grinding, I think the problem is the grinding combined with the fact that the grinding isn't very interesting.

Persona 3 not only uses a variation on the press turn system that makes battles shorter and emphasizes learning how to fight more than grinding more than ever before, but introduces two completely different kinds of grinding: one to please jRPG fanatics and one to please people who like intricately painted characters. On the other hand, some people will think both slows the pacing down too much for either to be interesting.

On the other extreme is Disgaea which is an unapologetic grind, but puts such a ridiculous amount of depth into the grinding and battles that it never gets repetitive as long as you're willing to take the next step into the bottomless pool of ways to make your characters ridiculously powerful.

Of course, if grinding is a problem, I'd reiterate my recommendation of Chrono Cross, where grinding usually can't last more than a few minutes at a time and actual levels only happen after bosses. It also excels, as its predecessor did, in replay value, though it is significantly more linear in that respect.

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Nillo
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Pretty much every fight in The Spirit Engine 2 is an interesting challenge. I highly recommend it if you like tactical combat. There is also very little grinding involved - if you're stuck, it's probably because you're using the wrong strategy, not because you have too little experience. You can fast-forward battles if you think they're too easy, and you get "refund points" that you can use to modify your skills if you're not satisfied with the things you've learned on level up.

____________________________
“Folks say that if you listen real close at the height of the full moon, when the wind is blowin' off Nantucket Sound from the nor' east and the dogs are howlin' for no earthly reason, you can hear the awful screams of the crew of the 'Ellie May,' a sturdy whaler Captained by John McTavish; for it was on just such a night when the rum was flowin' and, Davey Jones be damned, big John brought his men on deck for the first of several screaming contests.”