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ErikH2000
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EDIT: Caucus period has ended. Please vote in the poll for best hold.

I'll be posting our seven entries for the contest next. We will now begin the Caucus period, in which authors and onlookers are encouraged to debate the merits and shortcomings of the entries prior to voting. The foremost criteria shall be how well each entry meets the ten requirements as described in the first contest announcement. Authors are not required to say which hold they made, which might add an interesting political twist to the debate. For example, I see no problem with an author recommending his own hold, but pretending he has no stake in it. The holds have been scrubbed so that it probably isn't possible to tell who created what. After a suitable amount of time has passed and talk has died down, I'll create a poll on which entry is the best.

Please, no flaming or personal attacks. I don't mind straightforward criticism--just keep it civil and directly related to the hold itself.

-Erik

[Edited by ErikH2000 on 02-20-2004 at 03:14 AM GMT]

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02-16-2004 at 07:49 PM
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First Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:50 PM
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Second Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:50 PM
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Third Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:51 PM
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Fourth Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:51 PM
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Fifth Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:51 PM
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Sixth Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:52 PM
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Seventh Entry of Seven, in no particular order.

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02-16-2004 at 07:53 PM
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joker5
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Personally I think the seventh is the top one. It's really creative, it tells a story, and it's got everything.

~joker5

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02-16-2004 at 09:14 PM
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Getting in a quick request for Erik before the discussion really starts: Could you post the in-game name of each of the seven entries, so it'll be easier to remember which is which?

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02-16-2004 at 09:49 PM
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Erik - it would be a whole lot less confusing if you renamed them so that the names in the "where" list would conform to the names of the files; at the moment, once you import all the holds there's no way to keep track of which is which.

But for now, here is a list of entries, numbered according to the order posted above:

1 - Ben Chisel's Five-Sweet Speeking Grauns
2 - Five-Suite Speaking Grounds
3 - Meeting Room
4 - Speaking Grounds (description starts with "ah, the suite floor..." )
5 - Speaking Grounds (description starts with "The Speaking grounds, as charted..." )
6 - The Five-Suite Speaking Grounds (description starts with "Welcome to the five-suite..." )
7 - The Five-Suite Speaking Grounds (description just says " Five-Suite Speaking Grounds" )


[Edited by eytanz on 02-16-2004 at 10:10 PM GMT]

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02-16-2004 at 09:58 PM
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eytanz
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A Proclamation:

It is our great pleasure to hereby declare that the entry herewithin known as FSSG Fifth Entry, has been, is, and forever shall be known to have been decreed superior to all other entries. And further shall it be known that this superiority is all-encompassing, and that in our great wisdom we have seen that anyone who has seen this entry will forever judge the rest of the entries to be totally and abjectly inferior, and shall forever hold the names of their creators in ridicule.

And therefore, in the interest of fair play, we hereby declare that no-one should look at the other entries, but rather that all should examine only the fifth entry, wonder at it's greatness, and vote for it, leaving the other entries untouched.


In other words, the fifth entry is mine.

I haven't had time to look at all the other entries in detail - but I've liked what I've seen so far... I have no idea who will win this, but whoever it is, I'm sure it will be well deserved. Good luck all, and may the best architect win!

[Edited by eytanz on 02-16-2004 at 11:18 PM GMT]

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02-16-2004 at 10:19 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Ironic twist: You spelt "proclamation" wrong. :D

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02-16-2004 at 11:11 PM
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agaricus5
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quote:
eytanz wrote:
In other words, the fifth entry is mine.

This reduction from a hundred-word proclamation using very formal English to just 5 words using basic language was so efficient it made me laugh. :lol

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02-16-2004 at 11:15 PM
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RoboBob3000
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Here's my take on all of them:

1. This one is certainly the largest of them all in terms of file size, and it's got a clever little mystery and "find the password" system, and plenty of story. I assume you were talking about this one instead of the seventh one, Joker. Am I right? Even though it isn't the most asthetically pleasing, this is one of my top ones right now.

2. This one is simple and repetitive. I'm not too clear about how this meets all of the requirements. Sorry to the hold author, but I don't think this one is going to win.

3. This hold handles the "no rightward bent" rule nicely. I don't, however, see how the meeting rooms work in this one. If it involves the snake room, I'd like to see an explanation. It also feels kind of empty.

4. This hold, even though it apologizes for it in the ending, i think has the best puzzles. The chamber of final speaking took me a while to get. Stupid Sir Pent. The code room and the system for meeting the negotiators in order were very effective. Another of my favorite ones.

5. Eytan's was certainly the most meticulous in meeting the 10 requirements. I particularly like how he handled the room size one. One thing that might have been overlooked in the design of this hold is that the "Archival staff" scrolls are only accessible in the editor. Otherwise, I think this one has a good shot of winning the contest.

6. This one is like #1 in the way it created every room for every possible meeting. Other than that, it doesn't feel like much work was put into meeting the other requirements. It seems like the effort stopped after making all of the rooms. I also don't like the linearity of the whole thing. Again, sorry to the author.

7. Short, sweet, and nice to look at. I actually found that it was possible to reach the archive in 2n1w. Try and figure that one out. I still need an explanation for how the meeting rooms in this one work. Besides that, I think this one isn't bad. It does a lot in a small space.



My favorites, in order, are #1, #5, #4. I took #1 over #5 because of the storyline. Unfair? Maybe. I can be convinced differently though.

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02-17-2004 at 01:29 AM
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ErikH2000
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Hmm. Seems a little quiet, so here is a question for anyone to answer: Which hold met requirements two and three in the best way? Were there any holds that, in your opinion, failed to meet these requirements?

Points 2 and 3 are...
quote:

2. The Negotiators will all be of unequal rank, and, of course, protocol demands recognition of rank. So the first suite will house the lowest-ranking (fifth-ranking) Negotiator. The second suite will house the fourth-ranking Negotiator, and be larger than the first suite to show rank difference. The third suite will house the third-ranking Negotiator, and be larger than the second suite. The fourth suite will house the second-ranking Negotiator, and be larger than the third suite. The fifth suite will house the top-ranking Negotiator, and be larger than the fourth suite.
3. We are concerned with the morale of the lowest-ranking Negotiator and do not wish for him to feel unimportant or sleighted. So make his suite (the first suite) larger than the fifth suite.



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02-17-2004 at 04:17 PM
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When I looked at them, it seemed like they were all the same size.

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02-17-2004 at 05:26 PM
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eytanz
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quote:
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
When I looked at them, it seemed like they were all the same size.


In what hold?

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02-17-2004 at 05:30 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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In several. Mind you, though, I only gave them a cursory glance.

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02-17-2004 at 06:48 PM
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The_Red_Hawk
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Out of curiosity, how long is the caucus going to be?

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02-17-2004 at 06:56 PM
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eytanz
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Well, you should be more specific, or at least wait until you've seen them all. Whether or not you agree with the way I interpreted both rules, I don't think anyone could argue that the chambers in my hold are the same size - and in the only other hold I've had time to look at in detail (#7) they aren't the same size either.

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02-17-2004 at 06:56 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
The_Red_Hawk wrote:
Out of curiosity, how long is the caucus going to be?

I would like to see much more conversation than what we've had so far, although perhaps that won't happen. I may have drastically overjudged the potential for debate here, but it does seem to me that people could be saying things like "This hold here only met 7 of the requirements, so it isn't as a good as these other holds." "What do you mean? I met all the requirements and here's how." Red, if you can spare the time, I would appreciate if you list some specific points for and against holds. Help out the process a little by being precise in your criticism. This is one topic where people are encouraged to argue and I think it can be fun, perhaps enlightening, but we need to throw some meat out there.

After we've given the debate a chance to warm up and die down, then voting will start. There is no set date for this to happen. It might be five days from now. It might be three weeks.

-Erik

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02-17-2004 at 07:28 PM
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eytanz
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I think, more than anything else, you underestimated the amount of time it will take before people can form opinions about seven holds... I'd say that most people who want to write/debate in detail will actually need to look at the holds in detail, and may not be able to spare the time to do so immediately. I know that's true in my case...

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02-17-2004 at 07:34 PM
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ErikH2000
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quote:
eytanz wrote:
I think, more than anything else, you underestimated the amount of time it will take before people can form opinions about seven holds... I'd say that most people who want to write/debate in detail will actually need to look at the holds in detail, and may not be able to spare the time to do so immediately. I know that's true in my case...

Fair enough. To be honest, I didn't expect as many as seven entries. :D Well, we will see how it goes.

-Erik

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02-17-2004 at 07:56 PM
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Ok, I was playing through the hold I submitted again and I caught a major mistake with stair destinations. While I was at it, I fixed a couple of typos and removed a scroll that accidentally got left in.

Rather than ask Erik to upload it again, I decided to just claim authorship and post this up here myself. This is #1. Sorry to everyone who has already played through it, but if you have already played through, it takes about two seconds to play again.

Also, note the tooting of my own horn in my previous post.

[Edited by RoboBob3000 on 02-17-2004 at 11:20 PM GMT]

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02-17-2004 at 08:03 PM
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eytanz
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Hmmm... I think it's only fair to judge entries as they were received; if anyone isn't around to fix bugs now then they shouldn't be penalized for it. Therefore, I plan to evaluate the version of hold #1 that Erik posted, not the updated one.

Still, it's nice to know that at least one more person isn't too scared to put their name on their work. I guess everyone else has been intimidated into silence?

[Edited by eytanz on 02-17-2004 at 08:29 PM GMT]

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02-17-2004 at 08:29 PM
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Alright, I can speak as a general observer who is unbiased towards any holds.

#1 may very well have been the most fun hold that I have played, including all of the ones in the Architecture section. If there were no rules I would certainly vote for it. I might anyway, I haven't decided yet.

Every hold met the first and second rules.

I think the third rule was met best in this order:

5 because the architect had a small moveable area in a large non-moveable area, thus making it larger, and still smaller. Plus a lot more walking for negotiator number 5.

6 because the pits make it large, and yet somewhat small as you can't go there either.

7 Because it had many crumbly walls. The architect tried.

1 Because it had an additional room, albeit somewhat hidden.

2 Because it had an additional room, not hidden at all.

4 Because it tried.

3 Because it didn't try.

The fourth rule part a is seemingly met by all of them. 6 is tough to determine which has the bed and which not.

Actually, I'll end my debating now and say that they all met the rules in their own ways, from creative (The architect misheard the instructions) to literal (The three lefts making a right in 5, although I must say that after that scroll, there is a forced rightward bend)

The rules are a bit detailed for me to go searching through 7 holds at this time.

My vote goes to hold #1. It has 5 suites, the space requirement is met fairly well, in such a way that the other negotiators may not know it is met, meeting 2 and 3.

There's a bed in each, a waiting lobby in each with schizo mimics, tiny desks in relatively large offices, and archives. 4 met.

5 is met.

6 is met, even though some have been altered due to the plot. But that is fine by me, because there IS a plot.

7 can be argued to be decently met.

8 is met.

9 It's not a must, but it's strongly suggested.

10 is misheard, and so in it's convoluted way, is met.



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02-17-2004 at 10:30 PM
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That's fine. All I had was one room in my Sinister Passage that kept returning to itself, making it very unlikely that you'd reach the Fire Mines. The password system was based on following a chain of correct passwords to stay on the "right" track in the passage, and all wrong answers would send you on the "wrong" track. That's why there are two copies of many of those rooms. My error was that the third "wrong" room kept returning to itself instead of going to the fourth "wrong" room.

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02-17-2004 at 10:32 PM
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#7's mine.
quote:
RoboBob3000 wrote:
7. Short, sweet, and nice to look at. I actually found that it was possible to reach the archive in 2n1w. Try and figure that one out. I still need an explanation for how the meeting rooms in this one work. Besides that, I think this one isn't bad. It does a lot in a small space.

Thankee! I discovered the 2n1w thing during a last playtest, and wanted to add a secret room or write something clever on one of the scrolls, but because I had one foot in the door and wasn't coming back until monday I just put some extra pits in the passages to show there's nothing there.

Since I didn't explain how I interpreted the rules in the hold itself, I'll do it here. (These are by far the best interpretations, of course, but I'm sure you all knew that already). But first, the key:

Brain = Negotiator
Red door = Negotiator's desk / Negotiating table
Blue door = Table
Door w/mimic potion = Table with lamp
Yellow open door = Chair / Couch / Yellow open door
Yellow door = A normal door (not all of these require orbs)
Green door = Also a normal door (opened by Negotiators)
Trapdoor = Bed
Scrolls = Archives
Orb = Stand-lamp / Orb
Eyes = Guards
Goblins = Staff
Brains = Negotiators
(Other stuff is what it normally is. Roaches are not part of the staff.)

And now, the rules and how I solved them:

1. There's five suites.

2. The fifth suite is larger than the fourth suite, which is larger than the fourth suite, which is larger than the third suite, which is larger than the second suite, which is larger than the first suite.

3. The first suite has a lot of crumbly walls to one side, making it (potentially) larger than the fifth suite. The Negotiator will have to carve it out himself (or get someone to do it for him), which is only fair, since he is after all the lowest-ranking one.

4. All suites contains a sleeping chamber for the Negotiator, a waiting lobby with guards, a large office with a tiny desk where the Negotiator sits, and an archive with adjoining quarters for the staff.

5. Public entry is only possible through the waiting lobby.

6. A network of passages allow Negotiators to send one of their staff to any other Negotiator to plan meetings. Once a meeting is planned, Negotiators use the passages to go to one of the five private meeting rooms for four or less Negotiators (the square rooms with 3x3 tables and 4 seats), taking care not to get noticed by anyone they're not supposed to meet, using staff as human shields if necessary. (Also, there's invisibility potions present, but they're, eh, invisible. Yeah, that's it). Once in a private meeting room, the Negotiators within close and lock the doors until the meeting is over.

7. There's direct passages from each suite to the Chamber of Final Speaking, all of equal length.

8. The public entrance is in the center of the Speaking Grounds. Anyone appearing there has to travel farthest to get to the Chamber of Final Speaking.

9. Any visitor has to visit each of the five Negotiators to gain admittance to the Chamber of Final Speaking.

10. No passages contains rightward bends, and they're pretty sinister as well. All changes of direction take place in little rooms, not passages.

So, there you go. #7 is obviously the best Speaking Grounds :P . Still, I'll post my comments on the others later.

(Btw, I agree that entries should be judged based on their original entry. Time's up.)

- Gerry

[Edited by trick on 02-17-2004 at 10:57 PM GMT]
02-17-2004 at 10:37 PM
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quote:
zex20913 wrote:
The three lefts making a right in 5, although I must say that after that scroll, there is a forced rightward bend



The rule says "all passageways" must be sinister. The scroll area is not technically a passageway. O:-

Eytan

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