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silver
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as I said, "the relation is not consistent or perfect"

Click here to view the secret text



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[Last edited by silver at 09-10-2008 01:59 AM]
09-10-2008 at 01:49 AM
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TripleM
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silver wrote:
as I said, "the relation is not consistent or perfect"

Perhaps, but it is famous.

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09-10-2008 at 02:30 AM
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silver
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OH, if we mean "what do you have to put into an old LED calculator" then I stand totally corrected.


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[Last edited by silver at 09-10-2008 02:34 AM]
09-10-2008 at 02:34 AM
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lopsidation
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Yeah, I searched "upside-down calculator" on wikipedia before I posted the puzzle.

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09-10-2008 at 11:11 PM
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Nuntar
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No-one seems to have posted any puzzles for a while, so I thought I'd step in.

This is an old puzzle to start off with, but I have checked the whole thread and it hasn't been done yet :)

As anyone who's played Tendry's Tale will know, Stalwarts always tell the truth, and for the sake of argument we'll assume that Poppy Guards always lie. And of course you can't trust those slippery Negotiators -- they may tell the truth or lie as they choose.

Now, a Guard and a Negotiator, working together, have stolen the Lucky Greckle. They are hiding out at the home of a Stalwart, because we all know how foolish those Stalwarts can be, and this one happens to be not only foolish but naive and gullible as well. The Lucky Greckle is either hidden in Nobard's Hold or Fetch the Pie, but you don't have enough yellow keys to explore both holds.

The three suspects have been arrested, and you are the interrogator. What is the minimum number of questions you need to ask to find out which hold contains the Lucky Greckle?

(Clarification: assume the three are standing in line and can't change places. Each question must be directed at a particular one of the three. You can ask all three the same question, but that counts as three towards your total. All three of them know who each other are, and all three know where the Lucky Greckle is. All three are in the same room to be interrogated, so you may ask one a question referring to one or both of the others, indicating them by pointing.)

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11-03-2008 at 11:35 PM
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Sillyman
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... are not those three sorts of people very, very distinguishable? If not by appearance, then it is not asking a question to put each one into a combat simulator:

Guard- A very algorithmic and relatively intelligent fighter that the monsters will not notice immediately.
Stalwart- Either he'll freeze the monsters in place and do some resource management, or he will be very stupid.
Negotiator- Will run towards the power token and use a fegundo.

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FNORD
11-04-2008 at 08:49 AM
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Nuntar
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:P I'm sure you understand it's meant to be a logic puzzle and the DROD references are just in there to spice it up. In other words, you may not use anything DROD-related (such as appearance or in-game behaviour) in your answer.

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11-04-2008 at 11:53 AM
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Lamkin
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Since the Lucky Greckle is in one of only two holds, it seems obvious that asking one question to either the Stalwart or the Guard would give you a definitive answer:

I would ask, "Is the Lucky Greckle in Nobard's Hold?"
"Yes," replies the Stalwart.


I now know which hold contains the Lucky Greckle, as a Stalwart always tells the truth.

"Is the Lucky Greckle in Nobard's Hold?"
"No," replies the Stalwart
.

I now know that Fetch the Pie contains the Lucky Greckle, as (again) a Stalwart always tells the truth, and there's only one other hold.



11-04-2008 at 02:56 PM
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Nuntar
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You don't know which of the three shady-looking characters in front of you is the Stalwart, which is the Negotatior and which is the Guard.

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11-04-2008 at 03:22 PM
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lopsidation
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Ask "Is it true that either this statement is false or Nobard's Hold has the Lucky Greckle?" If Nobard's Hold does not have the Lucky Greckle, no matter who you ask, they would not say anything as it would be paradoxial. If Nobard's Hold has the Lucky Greckle, they will say something, either 'yes' or 'no'.
Thus the minimum is one.

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11-04-2008 at 03:47 PM
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brian_s
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I can find the Lucky Greckle with four questions. My first three questions are to ask each person "Are you the Negotiator?"

The responses will be either two 'yes' and one 'no', or one 'yes' and two 'no'. If it is just one no, then that person is the Stalwart. If it is just one yes, then that person is the Guard.

The fourth question is simply asking the person singled out which hold the Lucky Greckle, taking or negating the answer depending if the Stalwart or Guard is asked.
11-04-2008 at 03:50 PM
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noma
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I just wasted an hour seriously overcomplicating this. I got the same answer of minimum questions, but a maximum of 10, starting with asking the person the person on the left, "Who are you?", asking the middle person "Who is Leftie?", and asking the person on the right "Who is Leftie?", and then going on from there.

Oh well.

If anyone is interested:
Click here to view the secret text

11-04-2008 at 04:00 PM
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Nuntar
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lopsidation wrote:
Ask "Is it true that either this statement is false or Nobard's Hold has the Lucky Greckle?" If Nobard's Hold does not have the Lucky Greckle, no matter who you ask, they would not say anything as it would be paradoxial. If Nobard's Hold has the Lucky Greckle, they will say something, either 'yes' or 'no'.
Thus the minimum is one.
Nice answer :lol I can't really dispute it, but it's certainly not the answer I had in mind.

Brian's and noma's answers both work, but neither of them has reached the minimum number of questions (if paradoxical solutions are excluded), which is
Click here to view the secret text
.

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11-04-2008 at 04:10 PM
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lopsidation
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Hmm... I can see how to get three without paradoxial statements:
Click here to view the secret text
I can't figure out how to get two though.

If my answer works, though, then here's the new puzzle: Beethro is in a room with three huge clumps of tarstuff; one each of mud, tar, and gel. Every spawn cycle, Beethro has enough time to cut one layer of two of the types of tarstuff, but the third type will grow one layer. Note that if a clump gets down to 0 layers, it can still grow next spawn cycle because there are mothers behind force arrows.

The puzzle in the room is that Beethro has to keep cutting like this until only one type of tarstuff has any layers left, then he can go kill the mothers. If the room starts with 74 layers of tar, 83 layers of mud, and 106 layers of gel (DROD 5 has reeally big rooms), which tarstuff will be left at the end? A proof of your answer would be nice.

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[Last edited by lopsidation at 11-04-2008 04:56 PM : Asked for proof.]
11-04-2008 at 04:52 PM
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Nuntar
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OK, for anyone who wants it, here's the solution to my puzzle in two questions:

Click here to view the secret text


Now, moving on to tarstuff.

Let T, M and G be the numbers of layers of each type respectively. If Beethro cuts tar and mud (T down 1, M down 1, G up 1) and then cuts tar and gel (T down 1, M up 1, G down 1) the overall effect is to decrease T by 2 while leaving the others unchanged. So any one of the three can be decreased by an even number. Since T and G start off even, these can be reduced to zero; in other words, all the tar and gel can be cleared, leaving only mud.

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11-04-2008 at 05:12 PM
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lopsidation
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Wow, I never would have come up with that for the logic puzzle. Nice. You got the right answer for the tarstuff puzzle, a simple proof is
Click here to view the secret text


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11-04-2008 at 07:52 PM
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Nuntar
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OK, next puzzle.

 _ _ _
|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|
|_|_|_|


Fill the grid with numbers such that the product of the three numbers in each row, column and long diagonal is the same. You are given that the central number is 6; all numbers are positive integers -- no being cheeky and filling every cell with zero -- and all numbers must be different.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-05-2008 01:38 AM]
11-04-2008 at 11:42 PM
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lopsidation
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Click here to view the secret text


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"Happiness is like a cat. If you pay no attention to it and go about your business, you'll find it rubbing against your legs and jumping into your lap."

[Last edited by lopsidation at 11-05-2008 12:51 AM : Formatted squares.]
11-05-2008 at 12:50 AM
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Nuntar
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That's correct, and very nicely worked out. :)

The method of solving I had in mind is to reason: if we label the eight empty cells a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, then we have

T = abc = fgh = 6ah = 6bg = 6fc

T x abc x fgh = 216 x abc x fgh

T = 216

from which the solution is immediately obtained by listing the factors of 216 up to 36 (clearly the highest number that can be used) and placing them in the grid.

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[Last edited by Nuntar at 11-05-2008 01:40 AM]
11-05-2008 at 01:37 AM
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lopsidation
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"We need more!" bellowed King Dugan after a particulary large feast. "We need to expand our kingdom! Get me the royal architect!"

As the royal architect nervously entered the room, King Dugan gave him his assignment: he was to design a network of big and small cities, with connecting roads.

For ease of travel, King Dugan mandated that going from any big city to any other big city, or any big city to any small city, should require passing through at most one city on the way. As small cities are less important, going from a small city to another small city can require passing through at most two cities.

Becuase of the recent sweeping budget cuts, the kingdom can only afford at most 3 roads connected to any big city, and at most two roads connected to any small city. Note that roads can cross over and under each other.

King Dugan presented the architect with the following challenges:

1. What is the maximum number of big cities you can have?
2. What is the maximum number of small cities you can have?
3. What is the maximum value of the number of big cities times the number of small cities?
Oh, and diagrams would be great but they aren't required.

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[Last edited by lopsidation at 11-05-2008 02:27 AM]
11-05-2008 at 01:58 AM
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Maurog
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The best I managed to do is
Click here to view the secret text
(Highlight the secret text above.)
big cities or
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(Highlight the secret text above.)
small cities or
Click here to view the secret text
(Highlight the secret text above.)
as the number of big cities multiplied by the number of small cities.

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11-05-2008 at 07:53 AM
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lopsidation
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Maurog: You have parts 2 and 3 right but part 1 is wrong.
Nuntar: You have part 2 right but 8 is not maximal, there is a flaw in your proof.

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11-05-2008 at 11:29 PM
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Nuntar
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Well, I can't get it -- how long before you reveal the answer?

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11-06-2008 at 07:44 PM
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Doom
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Here's the missing number 1:
Click here to view the secret text

I suppose Maurog will be going next...?
11-06-2008 at 08:37 PM
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lopsidation
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That's correct, Doom. I suppose Maurog goes next since he got 2 out of 3.

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11-07-2008 at 12:11 AM
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Maurog
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I'd rather Doom go next, since 1 was the trickiest part.

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11-08-2008 at 10:17 PM
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Nuntar
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It seems either Doom has forgotten or is unwilling... perhaps it's time you set us one?

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11-17-2008 at 01:42 AM
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Doom
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Oh, I was going to do something, but then I thought about it some more and found it way too simple and didn't have a replacement at hand... feel free to keep this alive, anyone.

As for 1 being the trickiest part in the previous puzzle, that's interesting. I personally found it by far the easiest. I guess we just have different approaches in this kind of problems.
11-17-2008 at 11:45 AM
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Tim
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Let me just do a simple puzzle for the weekend:

There was this trick I wanted to use for my next hold: arrows that rotates clockwise every turn.
Using arrow rotation tokens (you've probably seen those if you've played TCB).
I'm not going to explain how they work, I can't. ;)

I wanted to know:
1) Is it possible to make the arrows rotate clockwise every turn using these tokens?
2a) If it is possible, what is the least number of tokens that is needed? Can you prove this with a room?
2b) If it is not possible, can you prove why it cannot be done?

PS. I've decided not to use this trick after all, since activating tokens every turn makes a lot of noise, and I find the noise distracting the real puzzles in the rooms.
Perhaps I should ask for a FR.

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[Last edited by Tim at 11-22-2008 02:17 PM : Added the word "clockwise".]
11-22-2008 at 02:15 PM
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TFMurphy
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Tim wrote:
I wanted to know:
1) Is it possible to make the arrows rotate clockwise every turn using these tokens?
2a) If it is possible, what is the least number of tokens that is needed? Can you prove this with a room?
2b) If it is not possible, can you prove why it cannot be done?
1) Yes, it's possible. I once made a quick test room that had all the arrows turn in the room according to the direction you faced, which was another interesting (yet loud) mechanic.

2) Minimum number is 7 tokens: each CW token can only turn the arrow one step before becoming a CCW token (which would reverse the step). So you'd need 7 to be able to turn a N arrow to a NW arrow if all you had were CW tokens. Adding CCW tokens into the mix changes nothing, since resetting all the CCW to CW tokens merely moves the arrow to its furthermost CCW position, from which it cannot go further CCW, still needing 7 CW tokens to get the full range.

The script required just needs to activate a single token every turn until the 8th turn when all tokens are activated. On that turn, it activates all of them at once to reset the arrow back to its original orientation.
11-22-2008 at 05:02 PM
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