eytanz
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You know, this isn't really a rant or a feature request or anything, but - I feel a bit overwhelmed by the feature request board lately... There seem to be a whole lot of very complicated requests, and more and more stuff being suggested - and I'm not sure what's being implemented, and how things will affect each other.

Personally, I decided to stay out of the feature request scene from now on until 1.7 is released - if only the things we know are going to be in it will end up being in it, it will still be a huge expansion to the DROD universe - remember how varied DROD is with only 10 monster types; even one or two more will add a whole lot, and we know more than that is added... And until I know what DROD 1.7 will play like I don't see how I can tell where the holes are and what's redundant...

Anyway, I'm not trying to dampen anyone else's enthusiasm for the feature requests... Just thought to bring in my own perspective.

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Scott
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I tend to agree there. I hardly read anything in the features request forum and only looked at this one because the title caught my eye.

Oneiromancer
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Hopefully we will be informed when there is a "feature lockdown" on 1.7 and the programmers focus on fixing bugs and balancing everything out, so we know that any new features would have to be put off to an even later release.

Game on,

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eytanz
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I'm sure we will, but my problem is that I simply don't know what 1.7 already contains - so I don't know what context the requests are made in. Monsters in DROD interact with each other - especially some of the new suggestions - and I think none of us (not even the dev team) had time to see what effects can be achieved with the new monsters. I'm sure there's already a lot of stuff there that can be achieved by certain designs that wasn't predicted - I'd like to know what that is before suggesting yet more stuff or commenting on other people's suggestions.



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zex20913
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I try to keep my comments to the basic/original monsters, but I see where you're coming from. But, I also think that the dev team benefits from the comments we have, whether they use the monster or not.

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eytanz
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Yeah, I agree - again, I'm not trying to stop the discussion, just expressing my own reason for avoiding it.

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The_Red_Hawk
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As far as I know, they're adding The Flow, Black Gates, Zombies (that freeze you when they look at you), a digging monster which I can't remember the name of, Splitters, and some other stuff too. I think it's all at Sourceforge, but I don't know how to get to it.

If you look at my "Monsters Before" post in General, Erik said we should see a Wubba in a later version.

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Schik
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I'm no authority on the matter, but I'm under the impression that we've already locked the feature list. I'm sure extra features/monsters could still be added, if they were just too good to pass up, but in general I think we all want to avoid too much feature creep. That being said, we've got a lot of work to do to get 1.7 out.

If I'm way off base, Erik or Mike will let everyone know and whack me with a stick.

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The_Red_Hawk
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So the ones on the feature list at sourceforge are the only ones being added?

Not that I'm complaining, mind you, there's 76 of them. I can't wait!

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Snapping, turning, rising, swirling,
Screeching, flipping, gliding, sliding,
The red hawk's dance of death.

.....the king of the skies.....

mrimer
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More specifically, most of the SF feature requests that are listed under the "Adopted" category will be in 1.7. A couple have been left out but there are some other good surprises (shhh...) that have already been added that will make the gameplay really wild! We have a bit of tweaking left to do, but most of it is already implemented. And as Eytan mentioned, we've only even briefly begun to dream of what possible interactions exist between all the new stuff that's been added. One thing I've noticed though is that the rock giant-zombie "tag team" combo might be a dungeon delver's worst nightmare!

It was relatively straightforward for me to add most of the new in-game features. What's gonna take a bit more time to complete are some major revisions we're making to the DROD game engine. I'm sure everyone'll appreciate them though, as they enhance the overall experience a good deal.

Schik wrote:
...but in general I think we all want to avoid too much feature creep...

Oh! We forgot to add the Creep! Oh, wait...that's another game...

Oneiromancer
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mrimer wrote:
More specifically, most of the SF feature requests that are listed under the "Adopted" category will be in 1.7. A couple have been left out but there are some other good surprises (shhh...) that have already been added that will make the gameplay really wild! We have a bit of tweaking left to do, but most of it is already implemented.

To me this implies that all of the feature requests for new monsters or tiles or potions on this board have no chance of being implemented in the game. While it was entertaining to discuss new possibilities, I think everyone did so in the hopes of them being included. Were these hopes unfounded?

Game on,

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Aris Katsaris
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Oneiromancer wrote:
To me this implies that all of the feature requests for new monsters or tiles or potions on this board have no chance of being implemented in the game. While it was entertaining to discuss new possibilities, I think everyone did so in the hopes of them being included. Were these hopes unfounded?

Game on,

Ahem. I suppose that there will exist releases beyond 1.7, and that new ideas can keep on being added to the game as long as interest exists in so implementing them.

I didn't discuss new possibilities only in the hope that they'll be included in the immediately next release -- I never thought there was much chance of that. Myself, I gave ideas meant for the future in general... whenever that will come to be. :-)

Aris Katsaris
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eytanz wrote:
You know, this isn't really a rant or a feature request or anything, but - I feel a bit overwhelmed by the feature request board lately... There seem to be a whole lot of very complicated requests, and more and more stuff being suggested - and I'm not sure what's being implemented, and how things will affect each other.

That's part of the reason I've argued against complicated request -- I think that if a creature can't be described in a three line summary, then it's probably not a good creature at all... And I've tried to make my suggestions (two of them so far) quite straightforward in nature...

agaricus5
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Aris Katsaris wrote:
That's part of the reason I've argued against complicated request -- I think that if a creature can't be described in a three line summary, then it's probably not a good creature at all... And I've tried to make my suggestions (two of them so far) quite straightforward in nature...

Then I think you'll find that there will be a problem trying to come up with monsters that do not resemble existing ones in type, movement or usage. I think that if the monster is complicated, it can still be good, as long as it has been well explained by the inventor so that other people can understand/visualise how the monster works.

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Schik
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I don't know - I'm looking at the new monsters in 1.7 so far, and with two notable exceptions, they are all extremely simple. Despite this, the puzzle potential is exponentially greater than with DROD:AE.

If (after a short introductory period) I can't predict instantaneously the next move a monster will make 100% of the time, then it's too complicated. Well... that's a little strong - I'm still horrible at predicting serpent movement in open areas, except in certain situations.


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eytanz
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I'm strongly convinced of all these statements:

- The simpler a monster is, the more versatile it is. Consequently, the more complicated a monster is, the less you can do with it.

- Any monster that needs more than 2 lines to describe it should be simplified.

- Any monster that needs more than 3 lines to describe it is probably useless.

===

Note that while this means that I believe most suggestions on this board (including some of my own) aren't really worthwhile (at least not without some rethinking), my problem remains - even those ideas I can understand and like I can't evaluate without actually playing DROD 1.7 first (note - just a list of features doesn't help, I can't figure out interesting combos without seeing the new features in action)

[Edited by eytanz on 11-11-2003 at 11:15 PM GMT]

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Oneiromancer
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Just to take Eytan's comment a little farther, if you think about it, every single monster currently in DROD has 2 descriptors: how it moves, and its special ability (if any). (The 'Neather doesn't count because it is scripted.) So I would probably not say 2 "lines", but 2 "bullet points" of description for a monster. I think that's what he meant.

Game on,

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eytanz
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Well, I wasn't actually thinking precisely on what two lines mean. I tried giving two-line descriptions to all the classic DROD monsters, but unfortunately failed on the serpent (well, also the 'neather, but that's a special case).

So I admit that there are exceptions to the generalizations above... But I'd say the serpent is absolutely the highest complexity a monster should have.

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Mattcrampy
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It's funny, but I'm more interested in how the design of the new hold's progressing. After all, the Beethro the Delver series and most likely the Wormspeaker series both lead up to 1.7, so Erik is most likely having a few thoughts in that direction.

Matt

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mrimer
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When Erik and I held DRODCon '03 he shared with me some information about the world of the Eighth. The world is an incredibly rich place! I also can't wait for future chapters of Beethro the Delver to come out, since a lot of what's way down the road has already been planned out long ago. It really got my imagination going.

Mattcrampy
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Has he worked out a map yet? That's all I want to know.

Matt

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