leroy00
Level: Master Delver

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First off, I wanted to say I missed the forum last week, during which time I couldn't access it, and I like the (as far as I know) new pics of the monsters on their description pages. I also like the information about the monsters which is presented in a humourous and 'RP-like' manner, i.e. from the view of the Budkin family.

There's one thing I didn't appreciate, however, and that was the technical information about the monsters and their methods of movement. One reason is that I, and I think all the serious puzzlers out there, found it a spoiler. It took me a couple of days to figure out that tar mothers spawn every 30 moves, and I was kinda proud of myself after I found that out. It even took me about a hour to figure out how to kill a serpent. (Maybe I should've read the help files.) But when I read the last two entires in the serpent description for example, it was stuff I didn't know, stuff which I think I may never have found out on my own, but I find myself using the information now to beat the serpents. The other reason is that it kills some of the atmosphere for me to read and think about the monsters in this technical fashion. I guess this is no issue for all the old hacks out there, but for newbies it is kinda overkill, I think.

Maybe this kind of information should be preceded by some kind of warning, although curiosity killed the cat, but at least each player can decide on his own. Maybe it could be presented in a more in-character or indirect way, such as: "The serpents sometimes show strange behaviour when they can't see you directly" instead of the detailed last entry on the serpent page. Then you'd have a chance to figure it out on your own. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive.

leroy

[Edited by leroy00 on 10-24-2003 at 04:00 PM GMT]

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eytanz
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I agree completely, and I think I mentioned this before, back in the days of another webmaster. I only found the website and the info after the first time in which I solved the game - at which point, I thought "wow, I'm happy I didn't see this sooner". That section of the website seems to be geared towards introducing new players to the game, but it contains WAY too many information.

At least the explicit spoiler to the endgame was removed, but still - there's *way* too much information there.

Similarly, the section listing all the levels is overkill in my opinion - why not let players discover this on their own? It's not as bad as the monster section, but even now, when I play a new hold and manage to discover a new level that I knew nothing about, I'm excited. The level list, with it's semi-screenshots (which spoil the graphics for monsters you haven't seen yet), it's description of the levels, and the occasional level reviews, seems geared towards detracting from potential players' enjoyment.

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Mattcrampy
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Most of the information on here is from the days of Claythro - I've been hesitant to touch his stuff unless I reckon it could be worded easier.

However, I've noticed that Clayton tended to be a little TOO explicit - witness the Hints page, which had full blow solutions for most of the difficult rooms in the first half of the game. I think I probably still err too much on blowing the puzzle.

Monsters: I reworded the 'Neather's section after a complaint about how explicit the hint was. I think what we've got is a little less obvious. The thing with the snakes, though, is that if this info is removed questions on snake movement are bound to pop up - I asked myself.

I'm hesitant about rewriting the roach queen's section, mostly because of suggestions made to introduce a 'shot clock'. It's intended to be fairly obvious that things spawn in cycles of 30, and if they're going so far as to introduce a shot clock (available to all and sundry) it's probably something new players should know.

I'll rewrite the serpents, though, because if it becomes too much of an issue we can always put it back. Look for the change in the next few days during my Stealth Update (TM).

Level Descriptions: I used this extensively while going through Dugan's the first time, and I reckon it whetted my appetite for later levels - I certainly wouldn't have finished DROD as fast if it hadn't been there.

But I see what you're saying. We can probably redo those pictures to give a fairly good outline of what the level entails without ruining anything. Any suggestions?

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 10-25-2003 at 04:21 AM GMT]

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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Well, here are my suggestions:

First, split the monster info. Have a page which contains the monster image and the basic info. The rest, move to a seperate "monster secrets" page, or what-not, which should be under the 'tips' section.

That way, someone who wants to find out what the game is about won't get hints while he's at it, but someone looking for hints will find them.

Second, put each level description on its own html page. That way, you can't scroll down and accidently hit a level you don't want to be spoiled about.

And finally, the level descriptions all seem to have two parts. The first paragraph is a nice story-type intro to the level. It's always well written, interesting, and contains enough info to keep player interest. Keep it. The next paragraphs are, uniformly, dreadful. They are patronizing, contain occasional spoilers, contain a lot of personal information that has no place there, and are occasionally inaccurate. They basically feel like whoever was webmaster at the time wanted to impress the players with his knowledge of the levels. They really, really should go. Comments on indivdual levels:

Level 1 - The final paragraph will just potentially make new players feel inadequate if they take 20 minutes to solve the level. And bragging about your speed belongs in the forum - not in an official info page.
Levels 2 and 3 - Here, the last paragraphs A - are very "lecturing" in tone B - Actually contains spoilers, C - the level 3 one is inaccurate (level 2 contains some real puzzles, from the POV of a new player).
Level 4 - Now here is where things get really bad. First, it contradicts the level 3 description - level 3 has "real" puzzles but level 4 "actual" puzzles? huh? Next, why should players care about webfoot DROD? There's a seperate page for the history of the game - people reading this may not know what it's talking about. And then the final paragraph. Which spoils the secret room, and a bit of the endgame sequence. And smugly tells you that using the room is a cheat. Basic way this paragraph reads: "Stupid game designers put in a secret room to help people cheat. I'll screw up their plans for them because I know better". If you only change one thing, change this paragraph. It's insulting to practically everyone involved with the game, programmers and players alike.
Level 5 - Not nearly as offensive, but again spoilerly and pointless. Let the players discover for themselves what they will learn - the first paragraph already does an excellent job of hinting towards the puzzles, why say it again more directly?
Level 6 - More lecturing. Still redundant with the first paragraph, and apparently aimed at spoon-feeding the player part of the solution.
Level 7 - Ditto + more useless personal info.
Level 8 - The exception that proves the rule. The second paragraph here is both neutral in tone, and contains actually useful info (you can get stuck). For once, I suggest keeping it in.
Level 9 - Second paragraph is a review of the level. It's a fairly accurate one, but it doesn't belong here. Third paragraph returns to instructing the player what to do.
Level 10 - More lecturing.
Level 11 - And more. Again, not the place to talk about the game's history.
Level 12 - And again, spoiling a secret room. It's a secret room. Let players enjoy discovering it on their own. I know I did, and it was quite rewarding. Telling me it was there would have ruined my fun.
Level 13 - Second paragraph suddenly recommends cheating, despite being smug about it before. And telling players that the level sucks is not a really good way to encourage them to play the game. Keep the link to the solution, though (by the way, there's something wrong with the hidden text on the hints page).
Level 14 - Back to lecturing, though not as bad as some of the others. Still, contains too many spoilers. What's the point of having puzzles where the player is supposed to figure out you can use goblins to kill snakes, if you just tell them that?
Level 15 - The last paragraph makes no sense on its own - why would having no enemies make you move around more? Also, there are other places where the red doors are explained.
Level 16 - Another negative review of a level. This one ends with a negative comment about the whole game (yes, I know it wasn't intended as one - but it does sound like it's telling people to stop playing)
Level 17 - Not a terrible one, but it has a mish-mash of the bad features of many previous paragraphs.
Level 18 - For some obscure reason, contains spoilers for level 23. And for some of the rooms in this level.
Level 19 - Now we're onto criticizing Erik's level ordering. True, it's a good point, but it really, really, doesn't belong in the game info.
Level 20 - First paragraph creates a nice, subtle sense of mystery - a new player reads it and thinks "wow, what's going to happen to me on this level?". Second paragraph tells him.
Level 21 - Level review.
Level 22 - Another level review, complete with spoilers, lecturing, and a rather defensive tone.
Level 23 - Yet another explicit spoiler. And a pointless one too, because any player who reaches this point knows it. Of course, a new player looking through the level list might not...
Level 24 - Nothing really wrong with this one.
Level 25 - Ok, this one is a bit different (for one, there's no story paragraph). If it were up to me, I'd leave this one out completely - it's the last level. Let it be a total mystery, so that players will feel a real desire to discover what's in it.

Anyway, the reason I went on about this at some length is because I really think that this page shows very poor judgement on Clayton's part. It's a page aimed at new and prospective players who want to know more about the game, but he wrote it as if it was a conversation with an experienced player. I, Eytan, am interested in Clayton's opinion. But someone who followed a link to this webpage and discovered what is a cool new puzzle game, will not be encouraged when he discovers that someone (who may very well be a Caravel employee - he has no way of knowing a priori that the website is staffed by volunteers) spends a lot of energy words spoiling puzzles and complaining about the levels. I really, really, really think that (levels 8 and 13 excepted), only the first paragraphs should remain.

As for the drawings - I'd rather have boring drawings than graphics spoilers, but that's a matter of taste. That's not the main problem.

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Mattcrampy
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Hmmm... good points.

Part of the redesign was shifting around things depending on what sort of person would be reading them, so the Game Info and Tips would go together (probably with the What is DROD article).

The monster pages are honestly a bit of a problem. There's no real reason to seperate Gunthro's info (as it's right there in the help) from the descriptions, and there's little reason to seperate Claythro's and Moorteo's intejections from Gunthro's.

But here's what I reckon - the current Dungeon Monsters page (basically just a skeleton at the moment) will take shortish, non-spoilery descriptions of all the monsters and a picture, slightly bigger than the pictures already there and hand-drawn. I'd hate to trouble Erik about this, so I'll probably try these on my own. A warning up the top will say to click on the monster to take you to the current, spoilery pages, more or less - the serpents one has been rewritten to be far less spoilery.

As for the level descriptions, I'm planning to get rid of all the references to secret rooms. I looked at that fourth level and went, ouch. That's bad. But the others I'll look at as well, it's just I want food now.

One of my old projects was a DROD walkthrough for GameFAQs which I trashed, but had some of the most delightful level names. Some of these are still here ('Level 24: The Town The Milkman Doesn't Go To') and as soon as I come up with some more for all the levels between 3 and 22, I'll add them.

I'm not sure about the General Help, either.

Matt

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ClaytonW
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This whole topic makes me sad.

When I was webmaster, I told Erik on a few separate occasions that I didn't like my own writing abilities. I never did. Initially, Erik wanted me to help write the endgame script. At first I was going to, but I told him that I wasn't confident about it, and he decided he and Mike would write it. I think they did a much better job than I ever would have.

Anywho, I like everyones ideas, please do whatever you can to correct my heinous writing.

agaricus5
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eytanz wrote:
And finally, the level descriptions all seem to have two parts. The first paragraph is a nice story-type intro to the level. It's always well written, interesting, and contains enough info to keep player interest. Keep it. The next paragraphs are, uniformly, dreadful. They are patronizing, contain occasional spoilers, contain a lot of personal information that has no place there, and are occasionally inaccurate. They basically feel like whoever was webmaster at the time wanted to impress the players with his knowledge of the levels. They really, really should go. Comments on individual levels:

I don't want to pick a fight, but I feel it must be said that although what you say is true to a point, I think it is a little over-exaggerated in places because I think you are writing from the viewpoint of an experienced DROD player who has completed Dugan's Dungeon and other levels/holds considered to be harder than many of its levels. For example, you say that a lot of the description is very didactic and patronising, which, to you, would probably be accurate as you know all of this and don't need to be informed of it anymore. However, to new players, I hardly think that they will know exactly what is coming up before they meet it, and although the descriptions do give away the themes of the level, I believe it will actually be more likely to be beneficial to players as it provides a small insight on the sorts of things to expect. In addition, you say the descriptions are too descriptive, which again is accurate for you because you already know what to do and expect, but to new players, I do not think it is so much of a problem as even though it gives away some game information/movement techniques, the new players still need to use this information in its context, which the descriptions do not give. I agree that the more spoilerish things like talking about level skips and specific sets of movements should be removed, but I do not agree that the level descriptions should be stripped of all information about its contents because I think it is more likely to give an incentive to players to play on and discover all the mysterious new monsters or combinations of them that they've read about but never seen, rather than scare them away because it "spoils" the fun of the game. Plus, I think the descriptions are helpful in the sense that they provide enough information to help players understand the sort of techniques required by the level, but not for any specific room, which I think is much less spoilery than having to give hints for specific rooms which people are stuck on.

Overall, I think that obviously, the major spoilers of the levels should go, and so too should the personal opinions about difficulty, but we should preserve the rest to give general advice to new players, and still let them discover what exactly is in the levels, rather than remove it altogether and leave players in the dark to discover it all by themselves, which, to me would appear rather unhelpful.

That's my opinion, anyway. I can sometimes be unclear about what I mean, so if you cannot understand what I've written, then ask me for clarification.

Finally, my intention was not to offend anyone, so I apologise if anyone is upset by what I've written.

[Edited by agaricus5 on 10-25-2003 at 03:16 PM GMT]

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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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Now I feel bad too - I have this tendency to be very harsh and critical of details, and I forget that they were put there by real people who might actually read what I say - and while I stand by what I want revised, I probably should have taken a different tone.

In any case, I don't think your writing is bad in itself - it's mainly that you didn't really have the right target audience in mind. If you would have been maintaining a DROD fansite, as opposed to the official site, I wouldn't have had a bad word about it. And this kind of stuff is much easier to criticize than to actually do - you want to be informative and useful, and share your personal experience to everyone's benefit, and it's extremely difficult to know when to stop. I do the exact same thing when I write things, which is probably why I tend to be extra harsh when I see others do it.

Note - I wrote this message as a response to Clayton, and Wesley got his comment in while I was writing it. I don't have much to add to what he said - I agree that I went to far in places, but I still think that there should be purely spoiler free level descriptions, and maybe have the hint page also have a section for general level hints or something. In fact, that might make a better structure than there is now - have the tip page contain general advice for each level, and have links to individual rooms which are extra trouble (which should be on seperate pages - it's a shame if someone accidently unhides too much texts and spoils a future room). That way everyone gets as much information as they want, but not more.

[Edited by eytanz on 10-25-2003 at 03:22 PM GMT]

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krammer
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I have to say that Clayton's level info was very useful to me when I first played through DROD. I liked to be able to see what was coming up next, and I also enjoyed very much being able to finish level 16 very quickly when I had been expecting a tough challenge.

But yes, the spoilers should go although they aren't that bad. The secret room things definitely - although I found the level 4 one very obvious I only found the Level 12 warp room because I knew there was one there.

Back to leroy00's original comments: the 30 move spawn and the method for killing serpents is in the help files. I congratulate you for working it out by yourself, but knowing how to kill them isn't the hard bit. If you were just thrown into it, I think many players would give up. Mind you, the U-shape in the 1st serpent room is a giveaway, but even one of the pre-recorded demos shows a solution to a room with serpents in.

DROD is tricky enough as it is - the point is not to work out how the elements work, that should be listed in help files. Puzzles are based on using that knowledge to ensure you can kill every monster in the room. And if it's in the manual there's no reason to view it as a spoiler.

Anyway, I never had a problem with the info when I was first working through DD, indeed I enjoyed the personal view. I agree with what you're all saying, but I think most people won't really mind too much either way, especially new players.


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eytanz
Level: Smitemaster

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I've decided that instead of all of us arguing in theory about what should be changed and what not, and leaving poor Matt to do all the work, I'll put my money where my mouth is and actually write a revised version, which then could be debated for its actual merits, and could be included or not depending on Matt's opinion. I tried to include general puzzle info without spoilers - and in some levels, such as 8 and 13, I included more specific stuff where I felt it was necessary. I also tried to make the later levels be more mysterious - I didn't mention brains, just their effects - that way, players know to beware, but will have to figure out for themselves the cause (yeah, I know brains are explained in the help. But there's a difference between explaining the rules and telling people exactly where to find them. Sure, it won't take a genius to connect the dots and figure in advance what's going to be on the level, but just because we're not making the information an actual secret doesn't mean we have to put it on the marquee). Levels 19 and 25 were the only ones I totally rewrote from scratch.


Level 1 - Having the doors locked behind him, Beethro decided that he might as well set to work, charging forth into the dungeon with his trusty sword, and the maps that King Dugan gave him.

The first floor of the dungeon that Beethro encounters is essentially a training ground, to let you get used to Beethro's movement and attack. With 126 roaches to kill, you'll see how important both are for his survival.

Level 2 - After breezing through the first floor of the dungeon, Beethro followed the staircase down to the 2nd floor where he stumbled upon the roach queen. He quickly discovered her scheme and was able to destroy her as soon as he slaughtered the other roaches. After working his way through several rooms, he encountered his first Wraithwing, which was easily removed by pushing it into a wall.

Level 3 - While recovering from a hearty laugh at the scroll that was left for him, Beethro walked down into the 3rd floor of the dungeon. Here he encountered the Evil Eye, a fairly easy beast to outsmart, a bit harder when there are several. This floor took Beethro a bit longer to work his way through than the previous two, due to the fact that he had to use his head instead of his sword to survive. Quite the mental struggle was had at the Eight Gates of Bill, but Beethro soon found the correct order to strike the orbs.

Level 4 - After taking a quick walk through the fourth floor, Beethro thought that this floor should be easy, because his mimics will be doing most of the work. He soon found out just how wrong he was. Beethro found things getting "downright tricky."

Level 5 - Beethro had some trouble finding his way around the fifth floor, due to its many winding paths. He encountered a great deal more wraithwings on this floor and learned about how they react in a group of their own kind. Many more Evil Eyes were present here, and Beethro had to pay careful attention to where they were looking. Beethro occasionally wondered how the Evil Eyes could "smell" him when he had used the invisibility potion, but figured that the explanation was probably too complex for him to understand anyway.

Level 6 - Upon his arrival at the sixth floor of King Dugan's Dungeon, (Hmmm, Where are all the prisoners?) Beethro soon noticed how oddly designed this floor was. Whether he traveled East, North or West, each room he entered looked almost exactly like the previous one, except for minor differences such as force arrow and trapdoor placement. Originally, he through this would make things a lot easier - but he quickly learnt what a big effect even in a minor difference can have!

Level 7 - Beethro shrieked as he saw the theme for this floor of the dungeon. He had dealt with many Serpents in the past, and owes the large scar on his forehead to one pesky serpent that managed to get him while his back was turned. Beethro has learned much since that day, and finally collected the courage to slay the monsters.

The serpent is one of Beethro's most formidable opponents. Immune to attacks by the sword, defeating one is a matter of cunning rather than brute force.

Level 8 - Unlike the previous floor, Beethro had never seen this type of monster before, but it looked pretty harmless so he went ahead and experimented with The Living Tar, learning its properties of square width. Beethro almost prevented himself from clearing one of the rooms before he thought it through. Aside from that, he learned that The Living Tar is not as harmless as he originally thought, and had several close calls with recently formed tar babies.

Stable tar that is present when the room begins will be there next time you enter, even if you cleared the room. If you are not careful about managing the tar, you might end up getting stuck and unable to return where you came from!

Level 9 - "Ah hell." thought Beethro the moment he looked around on the Ninth floor. "Doors everywhere! How in the hell am I supposed to do this? Maybe if I had some dynamite or at least a battering ram..." But Beethro knew that the only real requirement this floor needed was some patience. So he set to work striking orbs to release and slay the roaches.

Level 10 - Upon arrival to the Tenth floor, Beethro thought that perhaps this was the last floor, because there were hardly any monsters. Beethro proceeded to search for the exit, when out of nowhere were a large pair of glowing red eyes, with fangs sharper than his sword. "Spiders! How could I have overlooked the possibility of spiders on this blue floor?!" Luckily, Beethro was in such a position that he was able to destroy the spider, and after looking around extensively, pressed onward.

Level 11 - After the horror on the eighth floor, Beethro wasn't sure if he was able to handle another confrontation with the tar. "At least there aren't any Mothers, Yeck!" Beethro started the floor in the middle of a very large mass of tar. Beethro wielded his sword in front of him, and charged straight ahead, only to crash smack into a wall. "Oh no...not this... anything but this..."

The map won't help you in this level - trial and error are the only ways for you to discover the walls hidden under the tar. Take care, or you may accidently block the path you need to travel through!

Level 12 - "Nooo! Not more Serpents! I'm about ready to go back up and pound on the door and tell Dugan I'm doubling the extermination fee!". Soon, however, Beethro realized that while the serpents here were even longer and meaner than their cousins on the seventh level, they were also trapped in narrow spaces - as long as he kept one step ahead of them, he was relatively safe.

Level 13 - Beethro looked around, but could not see any monsters. His sigh of relief turned to a howl of anguish as he realized he had no idea where the exit is in the huge, sprawling maze around him. "This is insane! I'm an exterminator, not a laboratory rat!" Beethro took a deep breath, counted to ten, and began his navigation. His heightened explorer senses soon taught him one vital piece of information - he was not truely alone. There was a monster hiding somewhere in the maze, and like it or not, he must be true to his contract and find it before leaving.

Level 14 - Beethro heaved a sigh of relief to finally see some familiar faces in the dungeon. Back in King Notyalc's Dungeon several months ago, Beethro acquired several small rabbits whittled from fine wood, which he purchased from these amazingly talented Goblins. "Hey Fellas! How ya doin'? Remember me?! I bought fifte...!" A Goblin ran up and lunged at Beethro's throat. Luckily, Beethro was able to knock him away. "Hey relax guys! I don't want a refund or anything, I love my little wooden rabbits!" More Goblins started to swarm around him, with devious little smirks on their green faces. "Oh, I see how it is. Sorry to have to do this to ya' because I was almost willing to buy a whittled squirrel... Hyaaaaaaah!"

Level 15 - After suffering immensely on the fourteenth floor, Beethro was glad to see that most of the fifteenth floor was just moving around, without much enemy slaughter. Why, all he needed to do was just figure out how to get that red door open...

Level 16 - "Damn. I wish this stuff were as harmless as I originally thought. Oh well, might as well get started." Beethro was quickly growing tired of The Living Tar. Making matters worse, was the fact that he now had to use the tar to help him slay other monsters. "Arrgh!!! I'm not getting paid enough for this!"

Level 17 - "Stupid Tar. I'm glad I never saw it before this dungeon; otherwise I might not have gotten into this profession... YECK!" Luckily for Beethro, the tar doesn't discriminate; monsters could be trapped in its gooey depths as easily as explorers...

Level 18 - "Ooh goody... A little bit of everything, a little bit of variety, a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit more and I'll lose it! Waaaaah!". After his temper tantrum, Beethro calmed down and resolutely forged ahead. Time to put all those skills he acquired so far to use...

Level 19 - As Beethro looked around this level, he originally didn't see any monsters. "I hope it's not another maze - but no, I see the monsters hiding, out of my reach..." Well, if Beethro can't get to the monsters, it's time to make the monsters come to Beethro...

Level 20 - Beethro walked cheerily into the twentieth floor of Dugan's dungeon, and was quite pleased to see merely roaches upon arrival. After taking a few steps, Beethro started to shiver. "What's going on? I don't understand... EVERYTHING I KNOW IS WRONG!"

Level 21 - "This is insanity! Swing my sword, take a step. It takes forever to get anywhere in this place! By the time I kill off one herd of roaches, the next is right there!"

Level 22 - Beethro found himself getting quite perturbed. "You stupid mimic - won't you just stand still for a moment when I try to reposition - no, don't go there - NO!" Beethro was going into a nervous breakdown. At least in this level there isn't much violence...

Level 23 - "I assume you guys don't want to make me a little wooden squirrel, do you?... Didn't think so. I've had it up to my eyes with this friggin' dungeon. How deep does it go anyway? I've lost count! These maps are pretty worthless, ya' know that? I feel like takin' out some aggression on your Goblin arse!" But the goblins weren't alone - they were accompanied by deadly serpents as well. It was a shame that Beethro couldn't get the monsters to work against each other. Or could he?

Level 24 - Beethro found a scroll upon arrival to the twenty-fourth floor. "Odd, it seems as if it was put here just for me..." Beethro read aloud:

(Use scroll graphic from current page)

"Great! Some civilization at last!... Hey, wait a minute..."

Level 25 - This is it... The final floor... This is where all Beethro's efforts will come to their culmination. What fiendish puzzles could lie at the bottom of this great dungeon? Beethro wiped the sweat of his brow, and tightened his grip on his sword, and set ready to prove himself a true smitemaster.


Anyway, there it is. All comments welcome - feel free to be as merciless as I tend to be


[Edited by eytanz on 10-25-2003 at 05:07 PM GMT: Forgot to close a bold tag]

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krammer
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Fine as far as I can tell, apart from one minor thing:

You mention trapping monsters in tar on Level 17 - when 17 is all about tar management more than anything else. In fact, monster trapping never happens in this level except for one room. Perhaps make the last sentence - after Clayton's intro - something like:
"Beethro soon found he was going to have to be very careful about how he carved up the tar if he wanted to get out of this level."

Otherwise I think it's good. Althought he brain thing will be spoilt if the graphics are kept.

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DiMono
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I'm actually of the opinion that the level images and the first paragraphs are fine, and remove the rest.

The first paragraphs are mildly entertaining enough to hook new players, and the images communicate much of the same level info as the following paragraphs, without explicitly saying what anything is. This means a new player will look at the images and go "cool, a red snake. I wonder how that works," without having anything spoon-fed to them.

Just my $.02

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DiMono
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Seperate topic, seperate post. Sue me.

Matt, I'm willing to help come up with level names and written walkthrus if you'd like. Also, I'm willing to help work on monster and level descriptions, and proofreading the webpage, if you'd like, though I will have to ask for double my current salary.

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agaricus5
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DiMono wrote:
Seperate topic, seperate post. Sue me.

Matt, I'm willing to help come up with level names and written walkthrus if you'd like. Also, I'm willing to help work on monster and level descriptions, and proofreading the webpage, if you'd like, though I will have to ask for double my current salary.

That's rather misleading.

It sounds like you are offering free help, but then you ask for double your salary. Hmmm....



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krammer
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That's the point. He currently has no salary (paid by drod.net, that is, I don't know about real life) so double zero is still zero.

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eytanz
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DiMono wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that the level images and the first paragraphs are fine, and remove the rest.

The first paragraphs are mildly entertaining enough to hook new players, and the images communicate much of the same level info as the following paragraphs, without explicitly saying what anything is. This means a new player will look at the images and go "cool, a red snake. I wonder how that works," without having anything spoon-fed to them.

Just my $.02

The problem is that the first paragraphs also include spoilers for the secret rooms, as well as several inaccuracies. I basically kept most of them in my rewrites, but I think (level 17 aside) that I'm closer to describing what really happens in these levels than the first paragraphs do.

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Mattcrampy
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Eytanz: I can't, from here, see any problems with your level descriptions. I do like the narrative thread through the thing, and I think that should stay. Perhaps rewritten.

I'll post up what I've done with the monsters page for critical analysis in a few hours. Stuart's been kind enough to clean up the images for us, so those will be there as well.

DiMono: Hmmm... you're asking a lot, but okay. I'll double your salary if you're willing to help out. For that matter, double salaries all around!

For that matter, anyone got any witty alternate level names for Dugan's? Eg: Level 2: Red and Purple Don't Go Together; Level 15: The Nine Orbs Of Dugandy (a subtle reference to the Seven Bridges of Konisberg, but not really all that funny.) We can make it into a competition.

Matt

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Schik
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Mattcrampy wrote:
For that matter, anyone got any witty alternate level names for Dugan's? Eg: Level 2: Red and Purple Don't Go Together; Level 15: The Nine Orbs Of Dugandy (a subtle reference to the Seven Bridges of Konisberg, but not really all that funny.) We can make it into a competition.

Level 11: Erik Hermansen is a sadistic bastard who wants to cause you lots of pain and make you go bald.

Hmm. Maybe not.

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Mattcrampy
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Hmmm... maybe that would fit level 13 better. I'll edit to include what I thought up for level 11.

But I went with Level 13: Lab-roach, which also isn't very funny. I'm having a bit of a flat day. To Discworld!

Matt

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StuartK
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I'll post up what I've done with the monsters page for critical analysis in a few hours. Stuart's been kind enough to clean up the images for us, so those will be there as well.

Good luck finding them


I've not done anything in the GameInfo section yet, except optimising the animated gifs (a very, very minor detail) I'll have a look through it all, but I was awaiting a response to some of the questions I'd asked you by email (regarding the one image I did clean up) In all honesty, the images in Gameinfo look OK to me. There's a few artifacts which could be cleaned up, smoothing out some dithering, but it won't make alot of a difference visually. Something for a rainy day - but for best results, good scans of Eriks original art (if it's still available) would be ideal.


I have finished the DROD3D screenshots though (you might have some extra requests after you recieve them) It's a 5-6MB zip. Is that OK for your mailbox, or do you want me to split it up to send consecutively? Or shall I upload it all to some webspace somewhere?

And when can we return to the good old days of email conversation in actual email?

Mattcrampy
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Sigh...

Outlook is really pissing me off now. I'm sorry. I'll go through all your e-mails and reply to everything.

Split it up - my mail box doesn't like big files for some reason.

And I'm just uploading now. Feel free to poke and criticize.

Matt



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krammer
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Titles for the levels is something I had been thinking of for a while now. Anyway, this does a complete list all as spoofs of some well-known phrase or title. Some are awful because I really couldn't think of anything.

Level 1: Bugsies Alone
Level 2: The Roachmother
Level 3: Eye-Spy
Level 4: Do as I do, not as I say
Level 5: The Royal Variety Show
Level 6: Spot the difference!
Level 7: Worms
Level 8: Something nasty in the dungeon
Level 9: Too many doors...
Level 10: Incy-Wincy Spider
Level 11: Blind Alley
Level 12: Worms 2
Level 13: If only I could fly...
Level 14: A goblin a day keeps your sanity away
Level 15: Follow the Red-trapdoor road
Level 16: "Grow the Tar Southerly..."
Level 17: Need for Speed
Level 18: The Second Royal Variety Show
Level 19: Here, roachy, roachy!
Level 20: Artificial Intelligence
Level 21: The Never-Ending Spawning
Level 22: Dungeon Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones
Level 23: Put a goblin in the works
Level 24: "There's a monster in the town, in the town..."
Level 25: The Man with the Wooden Mallet

I like your titles Matt, don't think you need to get rid of them. I just did all the Levels cos I felt like it.

[Edited by krammer on 12-19-2003 at 01:55 PM GMT]

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leroy00
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krammer wrote:

Back to leroy00's original comments: the 30 move spawn and the method for killing serpents is in the help files. I congratulate you for working it out by yourself, but knowing how to kill them isn't the hard bit. If you were just thrown into it, I think many players would give up. Mind you, the U-shape in the 1st serpent room is a giveaway, but even one of the pre-recorded demos shows a solution to a room with serpents in.

DROD is tricky enough as it is - the point is not to work out how the elements work, that should be listed in help files. Puzzles are based on using that knowledge to ensure you can kill every monster in the room. And if it's in the manual there's no reason to view it as a spoiler.

I'm kinda late on this, since I don't always have access, so forgive my digression.

Anyway, I wasn't looking for a pat on the back, if that's what you think. Our scientific/humanistic/anal-control-freak world view is based on first discovering the laws that control the universe and then finding ways to use them to our benefit. I was just trying to say that some people like that "Eureka!" effect that comes with figuring out how something works, and that the information could be provided on a need-to-know basis, and if I weren't the kind of person who enjoyed finding things out, I would've read the help file first.

Like I said before, getting stuck in the Webfoot version is what brought me to this site in the first place, and people tend to look for help when they feel they need it, but that doesn't mean they should be hit over the head with it when they aren't looking for it, and it is of course possible to warn them before giving them spoilers, so why not? Who's to say figuring out how a level works is a puzzle, but figuring out how a snake or goblin works is part of inherited knowledge? For me, and maybe for some others, they are both aspects of the same challenge. I was trying to give all you old hacks an insight into a newbie's view of the site and possibly a way to make it more enjoyable.

After the monster page, I avoided the level descriptions in order to keep up the suspense wondering what was still to come, and as I've not finished the game yet, that is one of the main things that keeps me playing. I was only asking that it be considered to give the players a choice (see eytanz's first reply), and I'm glad to see it's been done and that the thread has brought some nice developments as a by-product.

leroy

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Mattcrampy
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Thanks for your comments, leroy.

I'm by no means psychic, and I've got a life somewhere out there, so I can't spend my days trawling across the site, obsessed somewhat with making it a useful experience for all. There are some things I just can't do, and knowing how everyone else sees things helps me out a lot.

Matt

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eytanz
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Oooh, I just looked at the website - thanks for using my level descriptions as a base, and I basically agree with all the changes (the only thing I sort of think is missing is the warning the you can be stuck in level 8, but I wasn't really happy with the way mine was worded so I could see why it was removed).

And I really like the new monster page. The only shame is that to see the reall nice drawings, you have to go to the spoiler page... Maybe you should switch the graphics around, though I see why you wouldn't want to do so for presentation reasons.

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Sorry, I didn't give you proper credit. One more thing to add to my growing list of things that Matt forgot.

Although I decided that a warning probably wasn't necessary, the amount of times people have asked why they can't proceed counsels otherwise.

And the pictures (torn straight from DROD) will most likely be replaced by something smaller and hand-drawn, as I didn't really like them from the start. That is, if I can find a GIF animator.

I'm going back through DROD, one level at a time, so I can get my humour flowing again. I've been roped in flogging stuff off at the Rugby World Cup (a history by a former Australian player, produced by Australia Post, and I'm not sure about the legalities of said situation) but it's A$100, so I'll go, I guess. That's about $70 US at the moment.

Matt

[Edited by Mattcrampy on 10-28-2003 at 12:42 PM GMT]

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eytanz
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Mattcrampy wrote:
Sorry, I didn't give you proper credit. One more thing to add to my growing list of things that Matt forgot.

Oh, I really don't care about that.

Although I decided that a warning probably wasn't necessary, the amount of times people have asked why they can't proceed counsels otherwise.

The reason I think the level 8 warning is important is because it's the only point in the game where you can lock yourself out of a room in a way that forces you to replay several other rooms to get in (lets say you solve 3S3E, leave from the south, and go and solve the 3 mother room. You'll have to replay both to continue, not an easy task for a beginner).

[Edited by eytanz on 10-28-2003 at 01:30 PM GMT]

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A couple of other changes I would make:

The General Help page is not particularly great. The one thing I hate most is the line at the end of the section on Backswiping - "you must use this technique to conquer room 50,449". First, Webfoot coordinates are only given, and secondly, it's a room spoiler which doesn't belong there. If you only do one thing, please remove that line.

The serpent, goblin and wraithwing hints would be better on the Monster page (with a suitable warning). It's not general hints. Anyone early on in the game may well decide to read the whole of the general page to just piuck up some useful tips - and they will find the key to successful serpent manipulation and spoil the challenge of Level 7. In fact I would leave only Backswiping, Tight Spots, and horde Management. The info on Orbs is a) obvious and b) only helpful if no monsters can reach Beethro after the orb is hit.

Also, on the solutions page, you hide the solution to the maze. Good. Then, it is restated and not hidden. Ouch. Please could that be altered? It's a waste of space, and actually more explicit than the hidden solution.

This may seem like I'm out to complain. Honestly, I think the site's great, but these little things really do irritate me. Sorry.

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eytanz
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krammer wrote:
A couple of other changes I would make:

The General Help page is not particularly great. The one thing I hate most is the line at the end of the section on Backswiping - "you must use this technique to conquer room 50,449". First, Webfoot coordinates are only given, and secondly, it's a room spoiler which doesn't belong there. If you only do one thing, please remove that line.

Ah, but the two problems balance each other out - true, it spoils a room - but no one knows which room anymore, so no harm is done .

Seriously, of course, you're absolutely right.

The info on Orbs is a) obvious and b) only helpful if no monsters can reach Beethro after the orb is hit.

I think it should stay. Two reasons:
A - It's harmless; maybe no-one really needs it, but it won't spoil anything for anyone.
B - It's not as obvious as you may think. It took me ages to figure this out. Partially it was because I was playing webfoot on a fast computer where the lightning would go by too fast for me to notice it unless I kept my sword on an orb, but mostly it was me not paying attention.

Eytan

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agaricus5
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I'm going to be a little nitpicky here, but...

This is the description for Level 9:
"Ah hell." thought Beethro the moment he looked around on the Ninth floor. "Doors everywhere! How in the hell am I supposed to do this? Maybe if I had some dynamite or at least a battering ram..." But Beethro knew that the only real requirement this floor needed was some patience. So he set to work striking orbs to release and slay the roaches. Well, after some leaf juice.

This is incorrect - Beethro never actually gets to drink any of his leaf juice anywhere in the dungeon, even though he tried to at several points.

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