Aris Katsaris
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 32
Registered: 10-10-2003
IP: Logged

Two ideas here, grouped together as they both concern potions...

1) Why not allow the architect to choose the range of invisibility potions? It seems to me that the 11x11 square forced upon architects may be restrictive to them; I think that architects could perhaps be allowed to pick what number the range of each potion should be, even though a radius of 5 (11x11 square) could remain the "default" visibility...

This would allow architects to go from all the way to complete invisibility (by choosing a range of 0 - monsters not seeing you even when you are very close by), or to generally constructing their puzzles and potions as it suits them, with the range it suits them.

2) Secondly... I have to say than in "Smallsome Swicks" I was rather seriously baffled at first by the way that the invisibility potion stopped tar and roach queens from spawning or serpents from moving at all... On a conceptual level I didn't found it to make really that much sense either -- why should serpents not move just because they don't see you, even though they move other times when they don't see you?

In all those cases (tar, roach queens, serpents) the invisibility potion seemed to be acting like a time-stopper instead.

So, here's my suggestion -- why not create an actual time-stopping potion, and thus separate the main idea of the invisibility potion from its bizarre side-effects where tar, queens and serpents are concerned?

Or for some originality, we can call it a "time accelerator", namely allowing Beethro and all critters caught within said accelarator's range to move as much as they want in the blink of an eye. (It's the same idea where practice is concerned).

Most invisibility potions in Smallsome Swicks would then have to be replaced by these "time-stopping potions", as using a simple invisibility potion wouldn't stop tar from spreading or serpents from moving.

But I think architects might enjoy having the different possibilities that time-stopping and invisibility potions provide as indeed being actual *different* options, rather than combined into one. Perhaps. :-)

Anyway, any thoughts?

Oneiromancer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2936
Registered: 03-29-2003
IP: Logged

I believe we already had many discussions about the effects of invisibility on certain monsters; see the Bugs forum. I believe the general excuse was that serpents move all the time when Beethro is in the room because they can see him just the same way that roaches can see him, and so if the roaches stop moving when Beethro is invisible, then so do the serpents. So I think that is somewhat understandable. But the roach queens and tar mothers not spawning under invisibility is pretty counter-intuitive to me too, although it was decided to keep it the way it is now, as far as I know.

Game on,

____________________________
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder." -- Tad Williams

Aris Katsaris
Level: Delver
Rank Points: 32
Registered: 10-10-2003
IP: Logged

Just checked out some of those discussions... Yeah, I'll have to side with the "counterintuitive" side.

The main argument in favour of retaining these characteristics are "The puzzles you get out of spawn-only-if-smelled behavior are too good to pass up" as Erik said...

... and this is something I also agree with, which is why I suggested putting those effects (on snakes/tar/queen) to a "time-stopping" potion of sorts. But perhaps that kind of a potion would be too similar to invisibility ones as it's difference would be only where these critters are concerned. Not enough benefit for alteration...

(I don't think that the motionless serpents are so intuitive either - most other creatures freeze because they need to know where you are to move towards or away from you... but serpents are in constant motion...)

*g* Perhaps we can pretend that the reason serpents don't move, tar doesn't spawn and so on, is because the invisibility potions *are* in actuality time-stopping potions of sorts. The whole "invisibility/smelling range" thing is nothing more than the empirical understanding of a phenomenon that Beethro and his fellow smiters have still failed to understand, not knowing much about time mechanics...

Hmm... one could even write a story about a Smitemasters' discussion on this... would be fun.

----

Anyway, this was just an idea, and an uncertain one at that... I'm also interested in hearing what people have to say about the other thing, having a variable range for each potion....

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5064
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Yeah, these are nice ideas. The good news is that the next version of DROD will have no less than 5 kinds of potions! The bad news is that they aren't exactly like the kinds discussed here. But the good news is that they're somewhat like what's discussed here! (...mhmm...yeah, let's stop on a point of good news...) They're gonna be really wild.

Definitely, the puzzle potential aspect is of prime importance. I've realized that keeping everything balanced in adding new DROD features is really difficult. When I say balanced, think of those RTS games like Starcraft: Brood War where it took months of extensive beta play-testing just to make sure all the parameters of the new (and old) units of the different races were balanced.

But enhancing DROD, IMO, is even worse. It's more like trying to add a new kind of piece to chess. Or just try changing the behavior of any piece and see whether you can surpass the current game in its elegance and beauty, or even retain it. (I tried making a modified chess where everything acted a bit differently, and I think I'll have to conclude that it was ugly...)

Fortunately, I think we've got a bit more leg-room with DROD to stretch our legs (yeah, let's keep the expressions flying fast and fierce). We've come up with several additions that have us just itching to start slapping levels together rather than working on any more programming. But think "Construct the Story" -- sometimes truth is stranger (and, hopefully, better) than fiction! The future is looking bright. (Rubbing hands together craftily...if one can rub their hands in that fashion...)

[Edited by mrimer on 10-19-2003 at 03:17 AM GMT]

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

You know what the worst thing is?

I have no idea what these are. You'd think I would...

Oh well, back to my Eighth article.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

zex20913
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1723
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Would there be any way for you to tell us what the potions will be?

____________________________

Mattcrampy
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 2388
Registered: 05-29-2003
IP: Logged

Perhaps looking on Sourceforge would be a good idea. After having a peek there, I can see why Mike and Erik are excited.

Admittedly, I want to get ahold of the DROD code so I can improve my coding skillz, but doing it in the name of research doesn't sound too bad either.

Matt

____________________________
What do you call an elephant at the North Pole?

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

I'm pretty excited about 1.7 as well - I just added a new monster yesterday. Haven't checked it in yet, I have one or two details to clean up still.

I'm still torn between working on the forum and the game. I have pretty limited time for drod, and just can't decide which to do whenever I DO have time.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi

mrimer
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5064
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

Schik wrote:
I'm pretty excited about 1.7 as well - I just added a new monster yesterday.

Wah hoo! This is the one I've been dying to see!



[Edited by mrimer on 10-21-2003 at 04:39 PM GMT]

____________________________
Gandalf? Yes... That's what they used to call me.
Gandalf the Grey. That was my name.
I am Gandalf the White.
And I come back to you now at the turn of the tide.

Schik
Level: Legendary Smitemaster

Rank Points: 5383
Registered: 02-04-2003
IP: Logged

mrimer wrote:

Click here to view the secret text

×So...do we have those flaming marshmallow monsters yet?

Shhhhhhh.... that one's a secret.

____________________________
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals.
--Mahatma Gandhi