Aris Katsaris
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*g* As I have noted elsewhere I'm rather new here, so many apologies if I'm violating some protocol, or repeating a suggestion that has happened in the past - it's a simple enough concept, so it's likely to have been thought up by others but I've searched a bit through the archives and haven't located anything close enough anywhere...

Monster Name: Changeling

Basic abilities and function: The Changeling can assume the form and abilities of other monsters alive in the room it's located in. This doesn't include tar, roach queens (both of which have the ability of reproduction), snakes or brains.

The Changeling uses the form it thinks best suited for the purpose at hand, whether that purpose is attacking or retreating. In essense this will mean that approaching over light blue ground it may be a spider, and if it needs to fly it will be a wraithwing, and once it comes close enough it will be a goblin. A goblin that in order to escape from Beethro's blade may need to turn back into a wraithwing, so you'll need to corner it against a wall, not a gap.

Assuming ofcourse all those forms are "available" to it by the fact of the existence of real specimens of the type in the room.

If all other "usable" monsters in the room are killed the changeling turns into its true form, which is that of a flying vulnerable creature that tries to avoid Beethro (in the manner of a roach queen).

Possibilities: Eek... the possibilities for puzzles seem to me endless - I'm drooling with the thought of them. From the initial surprise - imagine being attacked by a horde of roaches, but as they approach they turn into goblins instead. But hey still no problem you've got that narrow line between pits you can use to kill them? Not so -- as you approach the goblins with your blade, they transform into wraithwings to escape it and attack you from the sides of the gap.

Or perhaps there's a room where there's a ton of changelings and only one real specimen, and you have to discover which one it is, if you want to have a chance of surviving - once you kill that one the rest will transform into their harmless forms. Or perhaps you need to *avoid* killing the one true specimen, as in that case the changelings may fly somewhere you can't reach them.

Or perhaps as you enter the room you get an initial choice of choosing to kill one and only one certain "real" monster. Do you prefer to deprive the changelings of their intelligence by killing the one Brain in the room? Or do you prefer to deprive them of their flight options by killing the one wraithwing? Or perhaps the goblin?

Or perhaps there exists a roach queen and a changeling -- in its true form it tries to avoid you, so you have to lure it in by letting the roach queen give birth to roaches which the changeling will transform to.

So... what do you people think? As I said, the possibilities seem endless to me...

(a brief Sidenote, and apologies for posting this also here, but I was embarassed to start a new topic about it -- people talk about creating holds and about the "architect's edition" and so on... where can one download the tools to create a hold or the means to play them? I can't find anything relevant in the "download" section - am I just stupid?)

Anyway let me know what you think about the Changeling idea! It seems to me, elegant, simple and exciting at the same time...

[Edited by Aris Katsaris on 10-10-2003 at 04:37 PM GMT]

krammer
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Your extra question - and no need to be embarrassed:

Find the topic on the Bugs board entitled Build 46 - it's the top one. The link there will let you download a setup file. Make sure you don't overwrite your current DROD 1.5 installation, and when you first run architect's edition, you can transfer your 1.5 player data to the new program (so you needn't replay the entire game).

Then, you can download holds from the appropriate thread in the Architecture board. See the FAQ if you aren't sure how to do this.

Be warned that this version is still in Beta, so may be buggy, but we're very very nearly at release so there's not much risk of damage. Just don't be surprised if you have to update your DROD installation soon.

Anyway, back on topic:

I like this monster a lot, and surprisingly nothing like this has come up before. My only worry is that it would be too easy to make this almost impossible if too many changelings were around. I think it also needs to be simpler. Remember the essence of DROD is to keep things as puzzles with elements that are predictable. The system for how the monster changes needs to be defined by some simple rules, or else they will become impossible to handle.

Does the architect decide what form they begin in? Or will the changelings be in the most suitable from they choose right from the start? And will they act en masse, or individually? i.e., does a large swarm of these choose one form, or will they each decide on the best individually.

It's an intriguing idea though. Looking forward to anything else you might come up with.

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Oneiromancer
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Mattcrampy posted about "Dungeon Monarchs", kind of "bosses" of DROD, like the 'Neather. Later in his post I submitted my own creature, which I felt was more like a doppleganger, or changeling. You can find that post here: http://host97.ipowerweb.com/~caravelg/forum//viewtopic.php?TopicID=1158&page=0#6638 . It's not the same thing as your idea, but you might be interested in reading it.

Game on,

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zex20913
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The closest thing I remember to this suggestion is a monster that eats other monsters and gains their properties. I.E, eating a wraithwing gives it flight, and eating a goblin gives it that movement logic. Eating a tar baby lets it maneuver through tar. Etc.

I think that there should be a one-turn shift for the changeling if anything. That is, it takes one turn to change from one monster logic/look into another. An immediate change may scare novice and even expert players. This may, however, be a difficult thing to represent graphically. Possibly, the changeling would need to change into its natural form before the next creature form.

I do like the idea. But, as always, I think of questions for clarification.

1. Personally, I would like to see the natural form upon entrance of the room. In this case, they would move at Beethro's first move, with regards to my earlier comment. Is this feasable to you also?
2. Could they change into tar babies or tar mothers?
3. Could they change into mimics? This would introduce more puzzle possibilities, albeit odd ones.
4. When Beethro is invisible, would the Changeling be in its natural form? Would it know there are monsters outside of Beethro's invisibility radius?
5. If the answer to #4 is yes, what if there are monsters in the radius? Would the changeling be able to be them?

I think that's it. A very good idea for a monster.

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Aris Katsaris
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krammer - thanks very much for the instructions - I'm downloading even as I write this.

Each changeling decides on its form individually - mass decisions don't make sense to me and would be hell to implement I think...

The way I think of it (and I am not sure how programmatically difficult this is), each changeling decides on it's form and movement based on it's *current* form's intelligence (+ brain if one exists in the room, of course), but using the movement options of *all* available forms. Goblin's preferable (when possible) over other types - in light blue floors this is superceded by spider forms at a distance.

So, to give an example, when the changeling with the ability to be either a Goblin or a Wraithwing moves, it thinks of its options as if it has a Wraithwing full air-and-land capabilities... But if it's *currently* in Wraithwing form it will choose as a Wraithwing, and if it's in Goblin form it will choose as a Goblin - said latter decision may take the changeling over a pit to avoid Beethro's blade, which means it will simultaneously transform into a Wraithwing to do so.

If a Changeling-Wraithwing is forced to abandon its shape over a pit, then I guess it'll change into its natural flying state until it's reached land, in which case it will transform into a land creature.

zex20913 - not certain I like the one turn wait for it to change... I think it might would create more needless complications like "what if the last specimen of the monster is trasforming to is killed before the transformation is complete"... An instant transformation seems cool to me. And, yeah, slightly scary which is part of the point. :-)

To the rest of your comments...
1... Perhaps, but I think this might ruin some puzzle potential as it'd reveal beforehand which creatures are changelings and which are not. I think it'd be better if the changeling was already disguised as one of the creatures in the room. A hierarchy could exist - e.g. spider is preferable in distances, a goblin within 5 steps of Beethro, a flying creature over pits.

2. Not into tar mothers -- that would make them useless for puzzle material as they couldn't move, and they would have to change if the real tar mother in the room perished. And tar mothers take more room than a single space so they couldn't anyway, and it'd make more complications...

But I guess they could turn into tar babies. No reason to exclude them.

3. "Could they change into mimics?" Not into mimics -- mimics are not a monster and it'd create even more complications...

4. "When Beethro is invisible, would the Changeling be in its natural form?"

Nah... no reason to change its actions just because Beethro's invisible -- it simply stays the form it's already in.

5. The Changeling's "radius" is the entire room -- it can take the form of every monster in the room, doesn't care which monsters can actually see Beethro...

--

Will be going to read some of those previous monster suggestions people suggested. Thanks for the comments and suggestions.

The_Red_Hawk
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What if it wants to change into a serpent? How long will it be and how would it work?

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Aris Katsaris
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The_Red_Hawk wrote:
What if it wants to change into a serpent? How long will it be and how would it work?

It shouldn't be able to change into serpents or any other creature that's larger than one square in size. Too much trouble -- and I am sure it must violate some mass-conservation principle or something... :-)

It should also not change into any stationary and/or defenceless monsters like brains, tar mothers or roach queens. The whole point of its transformation is providing it with some tools to attack you with! :-)

krammer
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I've been thinking about this and come to the conclusion it might not be so great after all...

The problem with including tar babies is that they are no different from roaches in manner of attack - it's their formation which can cause problems.

It might be a good idea to exclude eyes too, as a sleeping eye is defenceless and again, a waking eye is identical in movement to a roach.

That limits the changeling to roach, wraith, spider or goblin. Presumably roaches would always be spiders in Palace style, and vice versa. So only 3 states. And roach is always inferior to wraith or goblin, I would imagine, so probably only two would be used. Is it really worth it?

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agaricus5
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Aris Katsaris wrote:
It shouldn't be able to change into serpents or any other creature that's larger than one square in size. Too much trouble -- and I am sure it must violate some mass-conservation principle or something... :-)

Violation of mass-conservation?

Hmm...

This seems to be happening all over the Eighth for some peculiar reason - how do roach queens and tar manage to suddenly materialise enough mass to form eggs and more tar out of nowhere, and after Beethro, or any other dungeon exterminator for that matter, kills something, where does all the mass in the carcass and remains disappear to? It seems we have some mass deficits and surpluses to start accounting for...

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mrimer
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Hey, you're using fuzzy math! (He's using fuzzy math!)

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Aris Katsaris
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krammer wrote:
I've been thinking about this and come to the conclusion it might not be so great after all...

The problem with including tar babies is that they are no different from roaches in manner of attack - it's their formation which can cause problems.

It might be a good idea to exclude eyes too, as a sleeping eye is defenceless and again, a waking eye is identical in movement to a roach.

That limits the changeling to roach, wraith, spider or goblin. Presumably roaches would always be spiders in Palace style, and vice versa. So only 3 states. And roach is always inferior to wraith or goblin, I would imagine, so probably only two would be used. Is it really worth it?

You forgot one *extremely* important element in the description of my "changeling". That it's limited to the forms currently existing as real specimens in the same room as it.

It should be able to turn into a tar-baby, because tar-babies can be formed when you slice tar -- that means that by slicing tar and thus creating tar-babies you are providing the changeling a form it can use to attack you with! Or a form it can use to go to a place where *you* will attack it. (e.g. think of arrows)

Likewise with roaches -- there may be rooms with roaches and roachqueens but no spiders or goblins. In which case the changeling will be limited to roach form. And only as long as you take care to keep real roach specimens alive. Timing puzzles can also be created by an architect using the roach queen's spawning.

Eyes... An initially sleeping changeling-as-Eye (initial form of the changeling may be decided by the architect perhaps), once waking up suddenly being able to utilise all the forms in its disposal? What about a room of eyes, which is in reality a room of changelings? And destroying the "real" Eye means that all the sleeping changeling-Eyes in the room are suddenly forced to transform to another shape? A shape which will ofcourse be wide awake and after you? :-)

agaricus5
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Aris Katsaris wrote:

krammer wrote:
I've been thinking about this and come to the conclusion it might not be so great after all...

The problem with including tar babies is that they are no different from roaches in manner of attack - it's their formation which can cause problems.

It might be a good idea to exclude eyes too, as a sleeping eye is defenceless and again, a waking eye is identical in movement to a roach.

That limits the changeling to roach, wraith, spider or goblin. Presumably roaches would always be spiders in Palace style, and vice versa. So only 3 states. And roach is always inferior to wraith or goblin, I would imagine, so probably only two would be used. Is it really worth it?

It should be able to turn into a tar-baby, because tar-babies can be formed when you slice tar -- that means that by slicing tar and thus creating tar-babies you are providing the changeling a form it can use to attack you with! Or a form it can use to go to a place where *you* will attack it. (e.g. think of arrows)

Maybe as an added extra, the "Changeling" can, once a tar baby, absorb itself into a tar mass and move within it (obviously with some sort of graphical marking), emerging from the other side, a tar baby again. You could say that it is changing shape into a form of tar mass.

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agaricus5
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It's a little off-topic, but...

mrimer wrote:
Hey, you're using fuzzy math! (He's using fuzzy math!)

Fuzzy maths?

What does that mean?

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Aris Katsaris
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agaricus5 wrote:

Maybe as an added extra, the "Changeling" can, once a tar baby, absorb itself into a tar mass and move within it (obviously with some sort of graphical marking), emerging from the other side, a tar baby again. You could say that it is changing shape into a form of tar mass.

Ugh. That would be ugly IMO and goes beyond and against the concept. The tar itself is not a creature. The concept of the changeling is that it can transform into creatures. If you have it transforming into pieces of tar you might just as well say that it should transform into piece of walls so as pass through them. No and no...

Ofcourse, if the so-called "Tar Sharks" are included in the next version of DROD, the changeling might be able to transform into those. :-)

Oneiromancer
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Probably the only useful reason to turn into a tar baby would be to get lost among the other tar babies, just as with a normal roach. Then, it would change into a new form at an opportune moment.

Game on,

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zex20913
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Probably the biggest problem with it now would be incorporating all the new monsters for it to change into, depending on what's added. Tar sharks, ghosts, etc.

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krammer
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Erm... oops.

Sorry. I suppose I should think before I speak in future. Well, write.

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