Oneiromancer
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So, yeah, what the poll says. Personally I liked Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, and there could be others I haven't seen yet that I would appreciate as good movies too. But I know that there are people out there who have amassed hundreds of Anime DVDs. So where do you stand? Hopefully no flame wars will erupt because of this. And please, let's not discuss Hentai.

Game on,

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trick
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Well, i tend to like it, but just because it's anime doesn't automatically mean it's good. Like any other genre, there's good ones and bad ones. I'm certainly not obsessed with it

Anyway, yep, Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away was really great. I'm still waiting for the latter one to come on DVD up here. It was in the cinema a year ago, and it still hasn't appeared. They tell me it will, but not when. I could just import it, of course, but i'd like the norwegian subtitles..

I also really liked the anime version of Metropolis, though noone else i've talked to seems to agree. Great soundtrack too, but whenever i say that, i get weird looks. Oh well.

Oh, and Cowboy Bebop: The Movie was nice, too.


[Edited by trick on 10-02-2003 at 02:28 PM]

Tscott
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The past few years I've been collecting a lot of DVDs in general. And in doing so I been discovering some Anime (before this I'd only seen Akria and Ghost in the Shell). Now I've got a nice little collection of about 35 anime movies/series. Of course, there's more that I'd like to get but here's the one's I've seen/own so far are in more or less 'best to worst' order (my opinion, of course):

Serial Experiments Lain: Box Set
Cowboy Bebop: Perfect Sesions Box Set
Now and Then, Here and There DVD Collection
Spirited Away
Boogiepop Phantom: Box Set
Grave of the Fireflies
Perfect Blue
Excel Saga: Vol 1-6
Kiki's Delivery Service
Cowboy Bebop: The Movie
Gunsmith Cats: Bulletproof!
R.O.D. Read or Die
Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust
Metropolis
Princess Mononoke
Castle in the Sky
Ghost in the Shell
Steel Angel Kurumi: Vol. 1-4 & Encore
Noir Vol. 1-5 (there's still 2 more DVDs in this series for me to get)
The Big O: Volumes 1-4
Ah! My Goddess: The Movie
Mezzo Forte (edited version)
Sakura Diaries: Collectors Ed
Akira
Iria: Zeiram The Animation
Burn-Up Excess Vol. 1
Armitage: Dual Matrix
Armitage: Poly Matrix
Vampire Hunter D
Blood: The Last Vampire
Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade
Ninja Scroll
X
Revolutionary Girl Utena: The Movie
Harlock Saga



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agaricus5
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Erm...

It's really not the sort of thing I like to delve into - the TV/film subjects are not things I take that much interest in, and my views will certainly be very different to yours, but there is one thing I will say about it because I feel rather strongly about it.

To put it very politely,

I detest it.

Sorry for any offence caused to anyone reading this - it's only my opinion, so is not meant to be an insult to those who do like it, but merely my own view on it.

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Mattcrampy
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I doubt anyone here will take it personally - for example, mushrooms don't get me particuarly excited and I doubt anyone will label me Satan for it.

Although I would be interested to hear your reasons, as it sounds like an informative read.

Matt

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agaricus5
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Mattcrampy wrote:
I doubt anyone here will take it personally - for example, mushrooms don't get me particuarly excited and I doubt anyone will label me Satan for it.

That's fine - I'm not offended either.

Although I would be interested to hear your reasons, as it sounds like an informative read.

Matt

I suppose...

Well, anyway, if you really want to know, these are some of the main reasons why:

1. General low quality of drawing. I really don't like the way most of it is drawn - to me it's been really badly done or done in a hurry. Some examples of what I mean are as follows:

Everything appears flat - the amount of detail and colours are low, so objects do not appear three-dimensional, and things associated with moving liquids, such as running water or eyes, appear like flat sheets of glass with strange white lines sliding on them.

People's faces are grotesque - almost all the faces I have ever seen in anime have huge, round, or elongated eyes that often squint for no apparent reason, and have mouths that can take up half a person's face when open and look like large, red, flat shapes. In addition, people seem to often have weird squiggles or lines on their cheeks.

2. General low quality of animation. I think that the way it has been animated and put together is horrible and, again, badly done:

The framerate is low and the number of frames used is also probably limited - when people run or move, they always move very jerkily, and continuous movement, such as in running, always appears to be repeated every few frames. When people talk, they also only appear to have a few select positions of mouth - either closed, open or sometimes half open. Talking then appears, to me, to be just fast repeated switches between these states of mouth, with no in-between states, and very few variations in mouth shape to account for pronounciation.

Very fast movement is missed out - Whenever people move very fast or move in special ways, they strangly defy the laws of physics and end up appearing all over the screen doing their different actions simultaneously.

3. Inability of the characters to express their emotions subtly. I find that the characters tend to not be able to show how they are feeling simply - they always resort to doing something drastic:

The face can portray only a few emotions by itself - without outside help, characters' faces only appear to be capable of showing simple emotions such as anger, surprise or suspicion/doubt, and always at their extremes, so people's faces can only show that they're very angry or extremely angry, or extremely shocked, and so on. In addition, to show this, faces often distort or become grotesque, for example, by growing eyes that are larger and rounder then normal and that can be held there indefinitely for the duration of the emotion.

Characters often over-act - in addition to their inability to show many feelings through their faces, they often resort to having to do silly, exaggerated things such as growing fangs when shouting angrily or falling over backwards with their feet sticking up into the air when shocked.

Characters need background changes to emphasise actions/emotions - for some strange reason, especially when a character is really feeling emotional, or something that is extremely important happens, the background invariably turns into some sort of kaleidoscope of flashy lights, colour, and movement.

Hotness or fright are always portrayed with a giant drop of sweat - I don't know how huge drops of sweat are supposed to magically appear on your head and float at a point there without falling, thus defying gravity and making water an exceptionally viscous and sticky liquid, but for the characters, it invariably does this when they are hot, bothered or frightened.

4. The effects are clichéd. Most of the effects I have described, and many others, I'm sure, are all re-used in exactly the same way, or are exaggerated again and again, until it looks exactly like the rest, and becomes, for me boring and unbearable to watch.





So...

Any questions?

[Edited by agaricus5 on 10-05-2003 at 07:42 PM]

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Mattcrampy
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I was right - it was an informative read.

It's hardly my place to go around "correcting" your dislike of the genre, in part because I agree that the same visual clichés are at the same time extremely offputting, overused and hardly logical; and in part because I don't much care. The exaggerated style of a lot of anime is rather pointless, I'll agree. However, most of that is done in less serious works, whereas the more serious ones (and particularly the

Maybe we've seen different shows. The anime I've watched tends to fall on the side of realism, intelligent scripting and subtle emotions, and I watch Futurama for my laughs.

Spirited Away and Princess Mononoke are both good examples, as is Cowboy Bebop, however I'd be hesitant to recommend them in this case because Spirited Away and Cowboy Bebop use the little 'cherub' thingies on the cheeks for the kids in the series, and Princess Mononoke had a so-so English dub (or so I've heard, and really the only thing I can say it that the voice acting sounded like it was phoned in).

So in other words, there's some good anime out there that favourably competes with the best the West can do, but there's a lot of crap as well. I just don't waste my time with crap.

Matt

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Tscott
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Anime certainly is a different style, and can take some getting used to. The first 2 anime films I saw (Akira and Ghost in the Shell) I fell asleep in the middle of, watched the rest of the film the next day and found myself at a total loss understanding what was going on.

The thing about Anime, though, is it's sort of like using "Television" as a genre. There's such a wide range of subjects it covers: sci-fi, fantasy, romantic comedy, thriller, action, parody, etc. (then of course there’s the kid shows like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. that I avoid). I can understand a lot of complaints about the style, many don’t like subtitles, or dubbing, or low frame rates- but there are some great stories that are still told within these constraints. I dare ANYONE to watch Grave of the Fireflies and not feel moved by the story of a young bother and sister trying to survive in war-torn Japan in WWII. Roger Ebert has called that film one of the best war movies ever. You may not agree, but I do feel it is a film worth seeing at least once.

The trouble is many people’s only exposure to the anime is Pokemon and the like, but to dismiss it from that experience is like watching Full House and Saved by the Bell on TV and saying everything on TV isn’t worth watching. Now I may concede with others here that 90% of Anime is crap, but then again 90% of EVERYTHING is crap. – Sturgeon’s Law. Theodore Sturgeon (a sci-fi author) then went on to say "The remainder is worth dying for"- that's the stuff I'm looking for all the time whether it be in music, movies, books, TV, anime, comics, PC games, web sites or whatever.

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agaricus5 wrote:
Well, anyway, if you really want to know, these are some of the main reasons why:

That was well-put.

For me, it isn't a 90% bad 10% good ratio. It's more like 99/1. When the ratio is so bad, I don't have much incentive to locate the good stuff. And for a title that's basically alright, it still gets marks against it for being drawn in exactly the same style that thousands of other animation has been done in. Even if the quality is good, I'm just tired of that style. If people were pumping out Warner Brothers-style animation in quantities similar to anime, I would be hopelessly bored with it all and avoid it.

The stories are something else to complain about. I know, I know--anime is not one genre, but a means of telling a wide variety of stories from different genres. Yeah, in theory.

I don't want to generalize too much, because I know there are exceptions, but about everything I watch seems geared to a 11-to-17-year-old boys. The "serious" anime is often more irritating to me than the obviously kid-oriented stuff, because there will be this veneer of sophistication masking immature power fantasy themes.

Well, I generalized too much. Sorry. I still look for something good every once in a while. I'm always intrigued by the vast selection and I love animation, but it's been a red herring for me with few movies worth the time spent watching them. Like I said, Perfect Blue was pretty decent. Princess Monoake had excellent animation, but the story was mediocre. There were a couple of worthwhile shorts on the Animatrix, and I might hunt down other works by the same authors later. Most of it I don't get. Akira, the big classic, bored me to death and made me irritated at the people that told me "you got to see Akira". I've probably rented about a dozen or so hand-picked movies that I didn't care for. I've yet to find anything worth watching on Cartoon Network. I'm sure this isn't a proper exposure by fan standards, but I've had a decent sampling.

-Erik

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Oneiromancer
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I pretty much agree with Wesley on many things, but a lot of what he says can be geared towards almost any cartoon. Defying the laws of physics has been a hallmark of cartoons since Disney. A lack of emotional range is better when your subjects are geared towards children...they'll understand it better.

The problem is, in our experience we can kind of differentiate between cartoons meant for kids and those meant for adults: the ones for kids mostly feature talking animals, while the ones for adults usually feature humans. Of course there are exceptions: many Disney movies feature humans. But they all have talking animal companions, and simplistic emotions. A lot of Anime, especially the ones produced in half-hour episodes, are very similar. This makes it harder for us to say, "I don't really like this, but it's not supposed to be entertaining for someone my age anyway, so it doesn't mean anything."

I am very curious, Wesley, if you are entertained by any forms of animation at all. Looney Tunes, Disney, the Simpsons, anything...something to give us an idea where you're coming from.

Game on,

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agaricus5
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ErikH 2000wrote:

agaricus5 wrote:
Well, anyway, if you really want to know, these are some of the main reasons why:

That was well-put.

Thank you.

I sense small grumblings in the atmosphere...

...hmm...I think that I should try to keep this at a low-level, non-aggressive discussion to avoid arguments.

Oneiromancer wrote:
I pretty much agree with Wesley on many things, but a lot of what he says can be geared towards almost any cartoon. Defying the laws of physics has been a hallmark of cartoons since Disney. A lack of emotional range is better when your subjects are geared towards children...they'll understand it better

The problem is, in our experience we can kind of differentiate between cartoons meant for kids and those meant for adults: the ones for kids mostly feature talking animals, while the ones for adults usually feature humans. Of course there are exceptions: many Disney movies feature humans. But they all have talking animal companions, and simplistic emotions. A lot of Anime, especially the ones produced in half-hour episodes, are very similar. This makes it harder for us to say, "I don't really like this, but it's not supposed to be entertaining for someone my age anyway, so it doesn't mean anything.".

Yes, I agree - if emotions are too subtle, young children may not be able to understand them. However, what I tried to get at at one point was that although Anime storylines may or may not have subtle emotions/feelings and a complex subtlety behind them, they seem not to be able to get their subtle message across without being too obvious - it's like I know what they are trying to say, but it's been brought forward in such an un-subtle way that it annoys me. It's not that I don't like the the plots especially; it's just that I find the way they have been presented to me off-putting to watch.

ErikH 2000wrote:
For me, it isn't a 90% bad 10% good ratio. It's more like 99/1. When the ratio is so bad, I don't have much incentive to locate the good stuff. And for a title that's basically alright, it still gets marks against it for being drawn in exactly the same style that thousands of other animation has been done in. Even if the quality is good, I'm just tired of that style. If people were pumping out Warner Brothers-style animation in quantities similar to anime, I would be hopelessly bored with it all and avoid it.

This sums up very neatly another reason why I do not want to search for that Anime which I will perceive to be good.

Oneiromancer wrote:
I am very curious, Wesley, if you are entertained by any forms of animation at all. Looney Tunes, Disney, the Simpsons, anything...something to give us an idea where you're coming from.

I'm not taking any offence at remark 1, but you must understand that just because I don't like the style of Anime doesn't mean I don't like any animated films/shows. In addition, it's also not just the Anime that sometimes puts me off watching them, but instead it's the storyline or the type of storyline present. To give an example of a type of story I would not like to watch in any programme/film, satirical humour, especially in the field of poking fun at politicians, would be one of them.

To remark 2, I am not writing from the point of view of a person who hates all animation, nor am I writing from the point of view that all Anime ever created is absolute rubbish, for it is the storyline which is also important, but what my position is is that the lack of difference, detail, and overdone cliché and exaggeration all mask whatever underlying good there may be in the film/show and just puts me off wanting to look for anything that would be of a quality that I want to watch.

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Oneiromancer
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Wesley, I am really sorry if I caused offense...you see, since you're the only person that said they really didn't like Anime, I just wanted to try to understand if it was just a general animation thing or if it was something else. The only Anime I have seen that I liked are the movies that, to me, actually told a good story and had good voice acting. My opinion, of course. I'm looking at them from the viewpoints of movies, not as cartoons.

So, I was just wondering if there was some underlying reason for you. I will stop trying to play Freud in the future. ;} I know that there are people who really don't like comic books at all just because they are comic books. So there is some precedent for me wondering if people would think this way.

I apologize again--I really didn't mean anything by my comments.

Game on,

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agaricus5
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Oneiromancer wrote:
Wesley, I am really sorry if I caused offence...you see, since you're the only person that said they really didn't like Anime, I just wanted to try to understand if it was just a general animation thing or if it was something else.

As I said before, these are only opinions and therefore, since the motive was not to offend, but to discuss, I am not offended in any way whatsoever.

The only Anime I have seen that I liked are the movies that, to me, actually told a good story and had good voice acting. My opinion, of course. I'm looking at them from the viewpoints of movies, not as cartoons.

That's fine - everyone has his/her own tastes and interests.

So, I was just wondering if there was some underlying reason for you. I will stop trying to play Freud in the future. ;}

I know that there are people who really don't like comic books at all just because they are comic books. So there is some precedent for me wondering if people would think this way.

I have this tendency on this type of animation, but it's not the only reason why I do not like some of it (And, of course, also why I do not like some types of conventional animation).

I apologize again--I really didn't mean anything by my comments.

That's fine.

again

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ClaytonW
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Tscott wrote:
I dare ANYONE to watch Grave of the Fireflies and not feel moved by the story of a young bother and sister trying to survive in war-torn Japan in WWII. Roger Ebert has called that film one of the best war movies ever. You may not agree, but I do feel it is a film worth seeing at least once.

I watched that movie yesterday with my girlfriend. Very excellent. She was crying on my shoulder, and I too was very moved, especially during the My dad is a WWII vet, but there's no way I could get him to watch the movie. First of all, after the war, he immediately decided to hate most everything from Germany and Japan. Second, he's the stubborn type of guy that thinks just because it's animated (not necessarily anime), it must be crap. That said, I think if a live version were ever produced (and I hope it isn't, because anime turned live action is almost always crap), he'd probably love it.

On the topic of anime in general, I'll say I am a fan. My tastes have changed since I first became interested. Dragonball Z used to be my everything, and now I look back at it and see how utterly boring, repetitive, and flat the show is.

Most anime movies are better than anime series', except in some cases where the movie is based on a series, like "X" or "Akira" where if you don't see the series (or in Akira's case, read the manga), the movie makes little to no sense. I've seen a great deal of anime movies, and I'll agree with the majority of this board: Some are good, some are bad. For me, the percentage of anime I like is equal to the percentage of "real" movies I enjoy.

I don't base my opinions on the animation much, because just like old movies' special effects, old anime animation is poor. Newer anime has much more fluid movement, like in a few of the Animatrix shorts, Spirited Away, and FLCL (Furi Kuri).

Also, I agree that there's something to suit everyone's taste. A short list:

Action: Cowboy Bebop
Romance: His and Her Cirumstances
Romantic Comedy: Love Hina
Mind f**k: Akira
Parody/spoof: Excel Saga
Pornography: *ahem* Can Can Bunny
Tear jerker: Grave of the Fireflies
Chick Flick: Sailor Moon
Big robots beating the bolts out of each other: Gundam Wing

plus many others. The above aren't necessarily recommendations, just ones I could think of, and have seen.

As far as the similarity of anime, well, I can see similarities within the individual genres of anime. The big-eyes thing is very apparent in some, and non-existent in others. There isn't a whole lot you can relate between say, Love Hina, and Vampire Hunter D.

Anywho, I'm going out right now, I may post more later. Here, have a dancing happy thing:

(>^_^)>

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I've seen that referred to as a "Dancing Kirby", and thought it was a cute name.

I found Kenshin (subbed) surprisingly compelling. I don't know what it was about the concept, but it grabbed me and wouldn't let go.

Matt



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I've seen Voltron and Robotech and Tranzor Z as a kid when they were on TV. I enjoyed them then. Maybe I don't get out much -- where does everyone hear about and get ahold of all this other anime stuff? Is there some portal to an alien ship with all the episodes on top of the Mountain of Fire, or are they just at the local video rental joint, or...?

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It's actually the Mountain of Ice, which is lucky because the Mountain of Fire's much more dangerous.

But video game stores often have a selection, plus there's always on-line shopping. Or Kazaa, whatever.

I'm lucky, because I live in Australia, and we have a channel dedicated to playing things from other countries (despite Australia's local content rule) which occasionally plays anime. We got Bubblegum Crisis Tokyo 2040, which wasn't bad, and Neon Genesis Evangelion a few years ago. They're not playing anything recently, which is a shame. They also have what must be the best voiceover guy in the business, unless someone else can match the class and subtlety of the SBS voiceover guy.

Matt

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trick
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For me it's the Mountain of Stone And Glass, actually. It's pretty icy during the winter, though.

Some anime movies I've seen have been shown at the local cinema, either as part of the local film festival BIFF (english) - Bergen International Film Festival (Metropolis, Jin Roh, Spirited Away), or as part of the regular program (Metropolis, Spirited Away, Cowboy Bebop - yes, I saw Metropolis and Spirited Away again when they came at regular cinema - got S.A. for free, actually ) . Others I've seen at movie night at friends' place (Akira), or at DVD on my own PC by pure chance (Ghost in the Shell, Princess Mononoke), or by intention (The Animatrix). I've also got Tenchi The Movie 1 lying around for some reason, but I've not seen it yet. I also saw some anime movies at SciFi channel many years ago (see below), but I don't remember what they were called. I remember one had a flower in it, blooming in a destroyed city (there was a desert, too), and the other had a man's head and an entire forest being chopped in half by a rotating throwing weapon. (Not the kind i usually like to watch, that.)

That pretty much sums up the anime movies.

I've also seen some anime series - many years ago, when i was smaller, we had SciFi channel by pure chance (yes, i get "pure chance" experiences a lot), where i somehow ended up watching the entire first series of "Tenchi Muyo" (marathon...), which i liked, and something else i've not seen again since - think one was called "The Moldiver" (a guy inventing a super-hero suit and more or less losing control of it), and another "Dominion Tank Police" (police driving around in tanks and destroying everything in their path. Weird stuff). Later I've also seen some episodes of "RahXephon", "Noir", "Tenchi Universe", "Tenchi GXP" and "Ranma 1/2", mostly by chance . Not much, though. Ranma is hilarious, want to see more of that some time.

Oh, and a local TV channel showed "Pokémon" and its copy "Digimon". They also show Teletubbies. The three are about as interesting.

In other news, it looks like the two biggest norwegian comic publishers have just decided to start a manga war against each other, of all things. It's the first time manga is introduced in Norway. This should be interesting...

edit: I didn't actually answer your question, did I ? So: I get my anime from the cinema, my friends, a local music/movie shop, and (very rarely) TV.

[Edited by trick on 10-14-2003 at 08:01 PM GMT: discovered i've not seen "most" anime movies at the cinema. huh.]

[Edited by trick on 10-14-2003 at 08:11 PM GMT: actually answering Mike's question]

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mmmm, anime.

I was going to make a thread asking for ppl to recomend anime...but this one gives me enough ideas to start with.

my favorite anime series of ALL time is by FAR:
Hellsing (NOT van hellsing)

that series is insane! and I LOVE it.

one of the best drawn animes I've seen is:
Appleseed
the way they drew water was incredible. in one scene especially...you would swear it was real water unless you knew it wasn't.

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I've seen very little anime, but what I've seen was mostly alright. My roommate got me to watch all of the episodes of Trigun, which I loved, and a friend got me to watch Vampire Hunter D, which I thought was pretty good. I've also seen Akira, which I didn't understand, and Kiki's Delivery Service, which I thought was alright but a little boring. Overall, I'm open-minded, but I can't see myself becoming a big fan in the future.

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A good half of these titles were familiar to me when I was being introduced to anime 14 years ago in college.



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I see exactly where most of the posters are coming from.

For me, its just as Malarame said, "Overall, I'm open-minded." BUT I'm that way about all television shows and movies. I'm not immediately turned-away by any of the art or the general style of any anime. I simply check out the series or film first, THEN I automatically know if its interesting enough for me to watch. I'm partically, speaking about various anime series, whether its geared toward kids or whoever. For instance, I have watched a lot of the latest US episodes of Yu Gi Oh and most of Pokemon (seriously). On the other hand, some shows just don't appeal to me. Lately, I've watched the Read or Die TV series, but there are certain episodes that I didn't care for.

I'm usually drawn to certain anime shows because of the humor. Other times its because of the story. But humor is a major reason for me. I'm just a sucker for comedy, which is why I'm into a lot of sit-coms.

Anyway, to sum it all up, I don't watch anime just because its anime. If it interests me, fine. If not, well, you get the point. I'm not a huge fan of anime, just certain individual series or movies that happened to interest me.

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Maurog
Level: Smitemaster

Rank Points: 1501
Registered: 09-16-2004
IP: Logged

First of all, I am a firm believer in the 99/1 rule, and of course it applies to *anything*, not just anime. For example, do you know which country is the leader in making movies (by quantity)? That's right, India! And with any luck, every year one of those movies is actually good enough to watch.
Anyways, back to anime - I'm by no means an expert on that, and I wouldn't waste my time on most of it (especially anything that ends with "-mon"), but there are some series that I like. My favorite is Kino no Tabi: the Beautiful World (usually translated as Kino's Travels or Kino's Journey). It is really a masterpiece, with excellent animation and deep philosophical issues raised in each short story. There are only thirteen chapters (plus a prequel and a trailer which are hard to find), and I honestly recommend this to everyone. You will like it even if you hate all things anime.

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Slay the living! Raise the dead!
Paint the sky in crimson red!

Chalks
Level: Master Delver

Rank Points: 267
Registered: 04-17-2005
IP: Logged

I went christmas shopping today (yeah, I know...only 5 shopping days left), and ended up with more stuff for me.

something's wrong there.

Regardless, I happened to find Hellsing the manga! I was pleased, as I've only seen it once before. The manga is almost twice as good as the anime (imho). So, I spent forty bucks, and got three of the seven.

Now I just have to finish my christmas shopping for OTHER people. hehe.