NiroZ
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I've just reached the new tar level (I think it's called gel). It's very interesting to have a tar variant that can only have it's inside corners be struck, and the fact that it's babies act like golems (which adds a whole lot of potential outside of it's static form) is a rather cool idea.

However, it is damn tricky to try and manage. I've figured that you should aim to get it shaped like either

XX
XXX
 XX

or 

XX
XXX
XXX

But as far as larger shapes go, things like

XX
XXX
XXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX

Are nasty. So does anyone have any tips for spotting gel that will end up being uncuttable/cuttable? Or even just trying to cleave your way through a solid block of the stuff.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 04-04-2007 11:52 PM]

Stefan
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NiroZ wrote:

XX
XX
XXXX
XXXX

That shape isn't removable. I think you meant:

XX
XXX
XXX

So does anyone have any tips for spotting gel that will end up being uncuttable/cuttable? Or even just trying to cleave your way through a solid block of the stuff.

I've been trying to figure out something similar to this, but haven't come up with anything yet. The problem is that the "parity" changes depending on how you cut it, so a different approach may be required.

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Yellow_Mage
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My tarstuff fetish can never satiated... *cough*

I haven't got that far yet, but when I was playing around in editor it's really easy to make a wrong cut (not necessarily gettin gelled in the process) leaving a seperate bit of gel behind. I think an approach to get into two cuttable parts is easier than one, but I *really* need to investigate so I don't throw a boner. >_> I don't know why I said that, but it's one of the funnier sayings...

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Yellow_Mage
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It's still tricky. It isn't like anything else...

Most people dealig with Tar they cut into into blocks, and you know it s cuttable if one of the sides is an odd numbered size length (I'm not very good at math, so I don't know how this would apply dealing with area if there were complicated patterns of Tar). Mud - straigh forward.

Gel it's hell. You need to look at shapes within is so you can cut Gel shapes like this -

 XX
 XXX
XXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
  XX

...and know it's cuttable. Stephan hit the nail on the head with it all depends on how you cut it, like with this shape -

XXX
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX
XXXX
 XX

...you can only completely cut it away if yo start at SE inner corner.

Simple patterns to look for -

XX
 XX

XXX
XXX
XX

The above has two nested within each other... um... like so...

XXX
XXXX
XXXX
  XX

Green bit is the overlay. This is why it's crazy.

There is only one constant with Gel -

 XX
XXXX
XXXX
 XX

- Any square block is cuttable if it is cornerless regardless of size. Has to be square tho' (I think) otherwise it doesn't work.

With my experimentation with Gel, it's not always a good idea to make it into smaller shapes, as it is much better to manipulate one peice from multiple sides to get into a reasonably shape you recognise or multiple shapes you recognise.

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coppro
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My theory for cuttability is still in the works, but it deals with the number of squares on a side.

TripleM
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The other thing is with gel, two separate pieces may be cuttable by themselves, but not next to each other, which you often notice when splitting a piece in two along a diagonal. Its so tricky.

skell
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Why not create all combinations of maximal I don't know... 7x7 Gel, try to solve every one, take notes, and wish for it to have any point

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[Last edited by skell at 01-29-2012 08:32 PM : Going to the keep]

coppro
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Okay, here's what I've gotten so far:

Any x by x square with an indent in one square is cuttable if and only if x is odd.

Current theories.: Not cuttable if both edges next to corner you start cutting at are odd-numbered in length.

EDIT: Not right. Current theories are related to: Number of interior corners, number of edges and sides, length of lines near corner cut at, and area.

Studies:

-XXX
XXXX
XXX-
XXX-

Cuttable from the bottom corner, not the top. Number of interior corners: 2, Number of sides/edges: 2, length of diagonal of corner cut: 1 (bottom) 2 (top), length of sides next to cut: 2/1 (bottom) 1/1 (top), area: 13.

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[Last edited by coppro at 04-09-2007 08:12 AM]

Chard
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I have been studying the Forbidden Gel intently (don't tell anyone or I'll never become a Tar Technician). I note that there is a 13 space structure over 6 points (I believe coppro referred to those as "interior corners") that can be destroyed as Tar or as Gel, and obviously also as Mud. I think it is smallest, there is a 14 space structure also over 6 points that bears the same property. I shall put them in secret tags in case anyone wants to try to work them out.



Amongst my musings I proved myself a happy little tarstuff theorem. You can never construct Tar with only one point of entry. My TT test must be coming up soon so I've got to learn these things.

Actually more generally tarstuff always has an even number of points of Tar entry, but the earlier statement was what I set out to prove. Outline of proof is below in secret tags.

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[Last edited by Chard at 04-09-2007 09:14 AM]

Yellow_Mage
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Chard wrote:
The number of points around the outside of tarstuff (exterior points) must be even, and there are four categories of piece, each encompassing so many of these points.

Especially cool to note that Tar, Gel and Mud are cuttable from the same shape. Interesting... *strokes beard*

You should post more often.

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Chard
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Yellow_Mage wrote:

You should post more often.

Thanks, I shall.

So what are the shapes like that can be cut in all forms? Can they be categorised? Obviously Mud is uninteresting in this regard but the other two are quite fun. Are there many which can be destroyed as Gel or Tar or are these two examples of something quite rare?

A side note about deciding whether something is destructible: Gel has made this a lot more complicated. Before in an open space any cut was survivable now we have this:

X X X
X X X
X X   X X
    X X X
    X X X

... which isn't!

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[Last edited by Chard at 04-09-2007 11:45 AM]

silver
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(without a mimic, decoy, or clone)

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Doom
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silver wrote:
(without a mimic, decoy, or clone)

or a stalwart, a guard, a slayer, a speed potion, a bomb, a fegundo, a gel mother, a tarstuff token, an adder, some briars or some build markers...

*runs*

TripleM
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Or an arrow

NiroZ
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Chard wrote:
A side note about deciding whether something is destructible: Gel has made this a lot more complicated. Before in an open space any cut was survivable now we have this:

X X X
X X X
X X   X X
    X X X
    X X X

... which isn't!

Not really, a square of tar like thus

 XXX
 X#X X
     X
XXXXXX

Is impossible for Beethro by himself to cut # and survive.

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[Last edited by NiroZ at 04-09-2007 01:29 PM]

zex20913
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Um...are we dealing with tar that grows with 1X1 attachments? Because that doesn't exist in my world.

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NiroZ
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zex20913 wrote:
Um...are we dealing with tar that grows with 1X1 attachments? Because that doesn't exist in my world.

No, they're just wall/objects/tar which I couldn't' be bothered to draw to its full extent, take your pick.

Krishh
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Chard wrote:
..in an open space..

Chard
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I suppose I'm more concerned with the implicit theory of tarstuff than the actual mechanics. The Gel layout I indicated is quite particular because it affords no options in the simplest possible scenario (arbitrary open space, Beethro with his sword, no mothers) while still being technically removable.

So in the theory the two previously equivalent mechanics for removability generate a distinction.

mrimer
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Early on, Adam (AlefBet) noted that gel is roughly equivalent to tar rotated 45 degrees.

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coppro
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Of course! We need to count interior edges!

Chard
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coppro wrote:
Of course! We need to count interior edges!

Not sure I understand your thinking here, are you referring to the lines between interior corners? Why do we need them? Do they enlighten us? I spent a while finding tarstuff removability tests based on the path that such edges traced out around the outside of a blob of tarstuff. But it didn't go very far.

The study of tarstuff needs a name. Any ideas?

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[Last edited by Chard at 04-09-2007 05:40 PM]

stigant
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The study of tarstuff needs a name. Any ideas?

How about "Blobology"

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Mikko
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Some of this has probably already been posted, but there's no harm in a bit of repetition.

When contemplating tarstuff, it's best to first focus on the corners between tiles. If all four tiles adjacent to a corner contain tar(/mud/gel), then I'll call it full, for lack of better terminology. Mapping out which corners are full, we have transformed the tar into a new shape. For intance:

XX
XX becomes x

  XXXX
XXXXXX becomes  xxx
XX XXX        x  xx

Note that not all shapes of full corners are possible. If a corner is between two full ones (horizontally or vertically), then that corner must also be full.

The point with this is that it's now much easier to see how the tar can be cut by looking at 2*2 squares (i.e. the four corners around a single tile). Cutting the tar at this tile will "empty" all four corners.

..
..

is a tile with no tar on it.

xx
xx

is a tile in the middle of the tar, so it cannot be reached.

..
.x (and rotations, of course)

is a corner tile, so it can be cut if the substance in question is tar. Since only one corner is emptied at a time, it's easy to see that any mud shape can be cleared.

..
xx

is an edge tile, so it can be cut if it's tar. Since two corners are emptied at a time, only shapes with an even number of full corners can be cleared (without outside help). If the corners were coloured like a chess board, a clearable tar shape must also contain an equal number off light and dark full corners. Note that even this doesn't guarantee that the shape can be cleared.

 XX    
XXXXXX                 x  
XXXXXX transformed to xxxx
   XX                   x 

cannot be cleared, even though it has a suitable number of full corners.

.x
x.

is a central tile, so it can be cut if it's gel.

.x
xx

is also a central tile, so it can also be cut if it's gel. The fact that two different kinds of central tiles can be cut makes finding out which gel shapes can be cleared much more challenging. So far I've only been able to determine particular cases rather than finding any strict rules for gel.

Jason
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There's a tar technician, a mud coordinator, but no gel person?

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zex20913
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Gel is forbidden in the Empire.

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silver
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Let us just agree from the start to not do Dr. Scholl's jokes


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Watcher
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Mikko wrote:
If all four tiles adjacent to a corner contain tar(/mud/gel), then I'll call it full, for lack of better terminology.

I used the term "enclosed", but "full" works as well.

Just a few hours ago, I submitted an addendum to my article on tarstuff. It'll be put up whenever gamer_extreme_101 gets around to it. Anyway, here's the short version of what I've found out:

The "enclosed corner" analysis still works, but, as several people have observed, there are two different removable shapes and both are difficult to deal with. I actually found it easier to look at which squares are cuttable. When you cut a square of gel, you can create up to three new cuttable squares, like so:

  GGG
  GYG
GGXGG
GYGYG
GGGGG

Cut the square marked X, and the squares marked Y become cuttable. The interesting thing is that if you look at the checkerboard coloring of the squares, X and Y have the same color. This means that if you start out with a blob where you can cut only light squares, then you'll never be able to cut a dark square in that blob. Now look at this situation (this isn't a full view of the blob, it may continue to the west and north):

XG.
GG.
...

There's one enclosed corner in this picture. If you want to remove it, you have to hit the square marked X. The three other squares are either corners or edges, so they can never become cuttable. That means you must be able to hit a square of whatever color X is. If you can't do this, you can't remove this enclosed corner, and hence you can't remove these four squares of gel.

This means that if you have (for instance) a 20x20 gel blob with the northwest corner removed, you can't eliminate the northeast and southwest corners of that blob. At best, you can isolate a 2x2 blob in those corners. A similar statement. applies to any blob that's rectangular with even side lengths, one corner removed. If the blob has one even and one odd side, you'll still have two irremovable corners, but they will no longer be opposite corners.

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Stefan
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That's about as much as I've found so far,but it can't be applied to all situations (not that you ever said that the above would be the rule about gel-cutting, but I'd still like one as elegant as the one for tar-blobs). I have some exaples of that, but I'll have to dig out my notes... which might take a while.Scrap that, you stated pretty clearly the conditions under which that rule applies. I just didn't read it good enough.

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[Last edited by Stefan at 04-09-2007 11:50 PM]

Maurog
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Note that just like cutting X can make the nearby Y's cuttable, it can equally well make the nearby cuttable Y's uncuttable. For example, consider this shape in which X has both a cuttable and uncuttable neighbour, and cutting X switches the states:

GGG
GYG
GGXG
  GYG
   GG

(The above shape of gel cannot be fully cleared).

It's all about the 8 neighbours of a shape I think. A gel tile with all 8 gel neighbours is an inner tile. It will become cuttable if one of its diagonal neighbours is cut but it will become uncuttable if one of its orthogonal neighbours is cut. 7 neighbours means it's cuttable. 6 neigbours has two options - it's either like the lower Y above (cuttable) or a 2x3 shape with an extra tile (uncuttable). Any tile with less than 6 neighbours is uncuttable by definition and never will be.

As a rule, cutting a diagonal neighbour of a tile with 6+ neighbours will reduce its neighbour count by 1. Cutting an orthogonal neighbour of a tile with 6+ neighbours will always make it uncuttable.

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